LDS things that are false if cafeteria Mo's are right

[_honorentheos]

the critique above regarding German isn't correct.

"oe" is acceptable in place of "ö" in German, particularly when one can't make the umlaut with a keyboard. Since the "o" is pronounced differently than the "ö", it's incorrect to write the word without the -e following the vowel in German if you can't type an umlauted letter. Since most people don't know the alt- commands for umlauts, it's not a particularly grievous sin.

Not to be pedantic, but it kept coming up. And then someone misspelled Gödel as Godel possibly out of deference to the posts critiquing nc47. That's definitely incorrect as the umlaut changes the pronunciation of the name and would change the meaning of every word I can think of offhand if missed.

I can't speak to the Hungarian as I've never spoken it or lived there. Even if it's from being a mishie, I know a little about the German language. The -e is acceptable.

[_Droopy]

Since not-a-cafeteria-Mormon Nelson Chung, bcspace, and others remind everyone so much that one can totally reject the doctrine of a global flood, accept the theory of evolution, and yet still be in complete harmony with the revealed truths of the restored gospel, I though it would be fun to review a few things that are false if the global flood doctrine is not true, the Tower of Babel story is not true, and/or evolution is true. Anyone, feel free to add to this list:

--the need for a savior from physical death
--the plausibility that the extraterrestrial demigod Elohim, who lived out his mortal life on another planet, is a primate just like the humans who evolved according to the specific conditions of this planet
--the Doctrine and Covenants
--the Book of Mormon
--the Book of Abraham
--the Book of Moses
--the idea that the current leaders of the LDS Church can understand the difference between their personal beliefs/opinions and truths revealed from God
--the idea that past Mormon leaders could understand the difference between their personal beliefs/ideas and truths revealed from God
--the need for a savior from sin, since there would have been no Fall if human beings had been living, reproducing, and dying for thousands of years before Adam and Eve allegedly left the Garden of Eden
--the idea of a pure Adamic language that Joseph Smith taught
--the idea of the priesthood being a patriarchal order that started with Adam
--the Mormon doctrine that prior to the Second Coming, all the Saints will meet at Adam-ondi-ahman to link priesthood keys back to Adam (see above)
--the doctrine that Adam-ondi-ahman has any basis in reality (the LDS Church owns the land and has placards identifying it as Adam-ondi-ahman, and the D&C contains a revelation identifying that area as Adam-ondi-ahman)
--Joseph F. Smith's vision of the redemption of the dead that was canonized in the D&C, which confirms that everyone on Earth except the passengers on Noah's ark died in a global flood
--the doctrine of human existence being divided into priesthood dispensations that began with Adam
--the doctrine that marriage is a divine institution that Elohim initiated in the Garden of Eden, as opposed to marriage being a human-created social and legal construct
--the doctrine that Adam and Eve were given a choice to experience mortality and death, which is the closest thing to a theodicy Mormonism offers (suffering happens because of free agency and because we need to experience it to become gods, as opposed to suffering and death just being things that arise out of nature)
--the doctrine that all living things were created spiritually before they were created physically (why would an organism spiritually exist forever in a form adapted to conditions of a specific environment and time on Earth?)

Anyway, there is a start. Just some minor, tangential things that are not central to the message of the restored gospel.

Your actual understanding of LDS doctrine is so utterly superficial as to render most of your demagoguery comic, if not simply silly.

[_ldsfaqs]

faqs,

By now, you should realize it isn't even worthwhile talking to Bazooka. You can state the sky is blue or the sun shines and he'll ask for a CFR. Is it reasonable to think that from Noah's perspective that seemed like the whole world was flooding? Yes. He most certainly didn't have a satellite to look down and see if the entire world was indeed flooding. And clearly many here would like to impose the interpretation that the whole world flooded on the scriptures, which I think is absurd.

The same is true for the creation story and Adam and Eve. Evolution is perfectly valid and reasonable. However, that does not preclude God from creating Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden (it wasn't this world) and when they transgressed, they were cast out into our world. This has no impact on the validity of Christ's atonement either since it is for all the descendants of Adam, who by this point includes all of mankind. Mormons can accept evolution and the gospel with no distress at all.

Thanks Tobin.... You've said it well and correct....

[_Droopy]

The belief that the earth possesses intelligence,

This is not LDS doctrine, but a speculation or conjecture based upon a single scriptural vignette which itself does not directly teach such an idea. McConkie mentions it in passing in Mormon Doctrine.

[Guest]

And neither is there any conflict between LDS doctrine and promiscuous gay sex. Also, the Church has no official position as to whether Joseph Smith was a prophet.

Do you posture in this fashion on purpose, Darth, or is this really the extent of your intellectual capacity?
Evolutionary descent from a common ancestor is not necessarily incompatible with the gospel, as a matter of the biological means or process through which life developed on earth. Now, the scientistic/philosophical assumptions and assertions derived from the nuts and bolts of the theory are a problem, and always have been, but that's because macroevolution has been been driven far beyond its explanatory relevance and empirical boundaries and deployed as an all-encompassing explanation for everything (and the transcendent randomness that has become a kind of surrogate god of the secular humanist world).

[_honorentheos]

The belief that the earth possesses intelligence,

This is not LDS doctrine, but a speculation or conjecture based upon a single scriptural vignette which itself does not directly teach such an idea. McConkie mentions it in passing in Mormon Doctrine.

So this passage in the Book of Moses is a vignette, not to be taken at face value? More of Joseph Smith taking poetic license with the inspired translation?

Moses 7

48 And it came to pass that Enoch looked upon the earth; and he heard a voice from the bowels thereof, saying: Wo, wo is me, the mother of men; I am pained, I am weary, because of the wickedness of my children. When shall I rest, and be cleansed from the filthiness which is gone forth out of me? When will my Creator sanctify me, that I may rest, and righteousness for a season abide upon my face?

49 And when Enoch heard the earth mourn, he wept, and cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, wilt thou not have compassion upon the earth? Wilt thou not bless the children of Noah?

Or what about this from section 88 of the D&C?

25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

Seriously, Droops, on what grounds are you claiming I'm the one that doesn't know LDS doctrine just because I view it as being built on a sandy foundation? Both of the above came to us through Joseph Smith. I'm not sure you can claim he meant the D&C section figuratively. Especially as it's not supposed to be Joseph speaking in that instance.

But I'll give you the benefit of a doubt if you can show where and how I'm wrong using official LDS doctrinal sources.

[_Droopy]

So this passage in the Book of Moses is a vignette, not to be taken at face value? More of Joseph Smith taking poetic license with the inspired translation?

What are you talking about? Take what at face value? What are these verses saying? Is there a doctrine of the earth as a conscious, intelligent being here? Really? Enoch has a vision in which he perceives the earth speaking to him about the corruption and wickedness upon its face. That's what he believes he experiences. That's how the vision was structured to impart and imprint its message upon his mind. Is there a "doctrine" embedded here regarding the earth as a sentient being?

Upon what basis?

But I'll give you the benefit of a doubt if you can show where and how I'm wrong using official LDS doctrinal sources.

The only place I've ever seen this mentioned, and then only in passing and as plausible interpretation, was by McConkie in Mormon Doctrine.

I've never heard a "doctrine" containing this claim taught by the Brethren in all my life in the Church. Not in forty years.

[_Bazooka]

And I do not know if there was a Noah either. There may have been or there may not have been.

Considering the Bible gives the genealogy of Noah and his descendants continuing on through Abraham and eventually giving the genealogy of Jesus himself, what sense does it make if Noah wasn't a real person?

At what point in the genealogy would we go from talking about 'figurative' or 'metaphorical' people to living breathing people?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_tree_of_the_Bible

They could simply be made up claims of legitimacy. Ooooo, look I can trace my lineage back to Noah. Aren't I special?!?

Do you believe Jesus was a real person?
If yes, what is the difference in evidence between Jesus' existence and Noah's?

[_Bazooka]

I don't know the proof but I know what it is.

How to be a Mormon in good standing, repeat this^

[_Bazooka]

Forgive the language, but if the Church has members like nc47, ldsfaqs and Tobin teaching classes or going on reach outs or supporting the missionaries in teaching investigators, then the Church is f*****. Proper f*****.