Relief Society prez Julie Beck the new "June Cleaver"?

[_The Nehor]

Half a minute. Are you saying that the LDS God made all things, is the ground of all being, and so on? You mean, for instance, that he MADE matter? One of the things I thought I had learned (with some dreary labour) about LDS theology, was that he did not.

I am of course willing to stand corrected. Or perhaps there is a divergency of LDS views on this?

I'm using made in the organizational sense. I apologize for the confusion.

[_barrelomonkeys]

As for Infymus... you will be given exactly what you deserve. It is something to look forward to.

I was going to respond to this, but I figure I'll end up in some long winded debate with you telling me how I just don't get it.

ROTFL. Okay, that made me laugh. Good thing I'm not in the office yet.

You will indeed "get it". You'll get exactly what you deserve. You have, after all, earned it. :-)

Can someone tell me what this exchange is about?

Cause my mind is in the gutter this morning...... but I'm pretty sure that this has something to do with religion?

[_Chap]

Half a minute. Are you saying that the LDS God made all things, is the ground of all being, and so on? You mean, for instance, that he MADE matter? One of the things I thought I had learned (with some dreary labour) about LDS theology, was that he did not.

I am of course willing to stand corrected. Or perhaps there is a divergency of LDS views on this?

I'm using made in the organizational sense. I apologize for the confusion.

So he did not create matter (which implies, of course, that he did not create the laws of physics, which make matter what it is). I am not to tell you what you believe, but can you see that some people would find it odd that believers in such a God still claim that he is the source of ethical rules? I mean, if he can't even tell matter what to do ...

And if he did not create ethical rules, it is not unreasonable for us to believe him to be subject to them too. We may therefore reasonably judge him according to such rules as are accessible to us (if we believe there are any). And even if he DID, make the rules, I fail to see why (presuming we are his creatures) we cannot criticise him for breaking them, just as children criticise their parents in a like case. Of course he can answer I MAKE THE RULES. IT IS DO AS I SAY, NOT DO AS I DO! But in that case his rules lose their status as absolute ethical principles, and just become the law of the stronger. Do Americans usually submit to that kind of thing without a protest?


I know of course that revelation (for those who believe in it) Trump's reason every time, which could put an end to this argument at an early stage.

[_The Nehor]

Half a minute. Are you saying that the LDS God made all things, is the ground of all being, and so on? You mean, for instance, that he MADE matter? One of the things I thought I had learned (with some dreary labour) about LDS theology, was that he did not.

I am of course willing to stand corrected. Or perhaps there is a divergency of LDS views on this?

I'm using made in the organizational sense. I apologize for the confusion.

So he did not create matter (which implies, of course, that he did not create the laws of physics, which make matter what it is). I am not to tell you what you believe, but can you see that some people would find it odd that believers in such a God still claim that he is the source of ethical rules? I mean, if he can't even tell matter what to do ...

And if he did not create ethical rules, it is not unreasonable for us to believe him to be subject to them too. We may therefore reasonably judge him according to such rules as are accessible to us (if we believe there are any). And even if he DID, make the rules, I fail to see why (presuming we are his creatures) we cannot criticise him for breaking them, just as children criticise their parents in a like case. Of course he can answer I MAKE THE RULES. IT IS DO AS I SAY, NOT DO AS I DO! But in that case his rules lose their status as absolute ethical principles, and just become the law of the stronger. Do Americans usually submit to that kind of thing without a protest?


I know of course that revelation (for those who believe in it) Trump's reason every time, which could put an end to this argument at an early stage.

You can believe in a god but you can not believe in the god presented by LDS Theology. God claims to be the source of morality for all his children. The 'Light of Christ' and the 'Holy Ghost' are the two conductors we know of. According to LDS Theology without an atonement we would have all become devils. God also claims to be just.

If you want a god subject to judgement then either he is not the LDS god or this god-person is lying a lot about what he is. If the concept of the 'Light of Christ' is false then yes, you could conceivably judge this being.

[_Zoidberg]

And if he did not create ethical rules, it is not unreasonable for us to believe him to be subject to them too. We may therefore reasonably judge him according to such rules as are accessible to us (if we believe there are any). And even if he DID, make the rules, I fail to see why (presuming we are his creatures) we cannot criticise him for breaking them, just as children criticise their parents in a like case. Of course he can answer I MAKE THE RULES. IT IS DO AS I SAY, NOT DO AS I DO! But in that case his rules lose their status as absolute ethical principles, and just become the law of the stronger.

My thoughts exactly. I used to ask my BP a lot why there will have to be polygamy in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom (that was before I found out that it's okay to think only some people will practice it, but at the time most LDS people I had met thought it was mandatory for everyone there, which leads me to belive that it's what most chapel Mormons think). After giving me the usual answers: there are more women than men (BS), women are more righteous/there are more righteous women (evidence?), baby-popping is more efficient with one guy and several women (what's the rush? they have eternity), he finally said: because God told Emma that she will be destroyed if she doesn't accept Joseph's other wives.

That taught me how to ask questions about controversial doctrines to my spiritual leaders so well I've never done it since.

What kind of a God is it that has to rely on scare tactics? The God of love? As if.

So my idea of God is back where it was before I became a Mormon: everyone will get what they want/what they believe. I suppose if Infymus believes he will stop existing after physical death and sees no problem with it, that's exactly what will happen. And maybe I will end up in some endless communion with the Absolute. Of course, it could be argued that both outcomes are essentially the same thing.

[_Gazelam]

As far as the teaching regarding "burning the field", here are the words of Christ himself on the subject:

John 15

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love

[_harmony]

7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love

I'm curious as to why you felt the need to include me in this grouping, Gaz.

For one thing, I consider it an honor to follow Christ. I suspect where we differ is that I don't think our leaders are following anyone but themselves.

[_Gazelam]

You read the papers, you watch television, you hear the radio, you read books and magazines, and much that comes to your consciousness is designed to lead you astray. … Some of the things they are telling you these days are: it is not necessary to marry; it is not necessary to marry to have children; it is not necessary to have children; you may have all the worldly pleasures without these obligations and responsibilities. … There are [many] ways to give you this loosely held, so-called freedom. They are telling you that you are manacled [chained] to your homes, to your husbands, to your children, to your housework. They are talking and writing to you about a freedom they know nothing about. …

Eve, so recently from the eternal throne, seemed to understand the way of life, for she was happy—happy!—that they had eaten the forbidden fruit. … Our beloved mother Eve began the human race with gladness, wanting children, glad for the joy that they would bring to her, willing to assume the problems connected with a family, but also the joys. …

Mothers have a sacred role. They are partners with God, as well as with their own husbands, first in giving birth to the Lord’s spirit children and then in rearing those children so they will serve the Lord and keep his commandments. … Motherhood is a holy calling, a sacred dedication for carrying out the Lord’s work, a consecration and devotion to the rearing and fostering, the nurturing of body, mind, and spirit of those who kept their first estate and who came to this earth for their second estate to learn and be tested and to work toward godhood.

Too many women spend their time in socializing, in politicking, in public services when they should be home to teach and train and receive and love their children into security.

No greater honor could be given to a woman than to assist in [God’s] divine plan. I wish to say without equivocation that a woman will find no greater satisfaction and joy and peace and make no greater contribution to mankind than in being a wise and worthy woman and raising good children.

[_harmony]

Too many women spend their time in socializing, in politicking, in public services when they should be home to teach and train and receive and love their children into security.

No greater honor could be given to a woman than to assist in [God’s] divine plan. I wish to say without equivocation that a woman will find no greater satisfaction and joy and peace and make no greater contribution to mankind than in being a wise and worthy woman and raising good children.

Been there, done that. Eight children, launched into the world. All of them upstanding citizens, none in jail, all either in college or graduated from college, the two girls with graduate degrees. All of them gainfully employed, including the girls. None of them living off the government. One in the military, defending this country. Six out of the eight married. All of them supporting themselves with no help from us 'rents.

Oh, in addition to my career as Mom, I also have a professional career, one I've worked hard at for almost 14 years. And I was in college for 3 years prior to my current job. And guess what: all of my children are excessively proud of their mom and their part in my career. All of them helped me get my degrees (3 of them), all of them worked out the scheduling at home to make sure none of them suffered because Mom was in school. While I was either in school or working, all of them played sports, joined the clubs they were interested in, and took turns cooking the dinner and cleaning the bathroom. I never missed a home game. Both girls earned their Young Woman of Excellence Awards. All the boys earned their Eagle Scout award. They qualified for thousands of dollars in college scholarships based on their excellence in both community service and grades. Six of the eight were accepted at BYU; none attended (the other two didn't bother to apply because they didn't want to go there anyway).

What didn't get done? I didn't have a sparkling clean house, a weeded garden, or time to gossip with the neighbors. We ate a lot of hamburger helper meals. I didn't have time for tv soap operas, romance novels, long vacations, or hobbies. I worked or went to school, and I raised my kids. Family Home Evening was usually spent watching someone run around the football or softball field. I studied at the same time as I watched my sons run track and cross country. I multitasked everything.

I am more than a just mother; I am more than the sum of my children; I am more than Mrs Sweet Pickles. I raised over $600,000 last year for a cause that is near to the hearts of my whole family. I serve on statewide committees. I get calls for my input on concerns of national significance. I am Somebody and I'll be damned if I'll sit here and let you insult me by telling me I am out of line by being all I can be, instead of just a mother.

[_Jersey Girl]

Some LDS dude:

Too many women spend their time in socializing, in politicking, in public services when they should be home to teach and train and receive and love their children into security.

If that is so, why are so many LDS women up to their eyeballs in callings and church commitments that take them away from home?