beastie wrote:The difficulty here arises with the use of the phrase "two opposing nations". Under the LGT, there was no such thing. There was mainly one Nephite polity, that exercised very limited influence over other friendly polities. These other polities weren't technically even "nephite" except using to denote a ally rather than an enemy.
The Lamanites weren't a nation, either. The Lamanites were really just other polities that opposed the one Nephite polity. There was no unity in either group. There was no demise of "one of these nations". At most, there was the elimination of one particular familial line that held power (Nephi's actual descendants).
If you believe, as the above statement outlines, that the familial split actually evolved into "two opposing nations" instead of isolated polities as I have outlined above, you are in trouble.
I guess I need to provide dictionary definitions.
NATION : a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own, a member tribe of an American Indian confederation, an aggregation of persons of the same ethnic family, often speaking the same language or cognate languages
I can see that any of those three could refer to Nephites and Lamanites.
POLITY : a particular form or system of government: (civil polity; ecclesiastical polity), the condition of being constituted as a state or other organized community or body: (The polity of ancient Athens became a standard for later governments. ) government or administrative regulation ( The colonists demanded independence in matters of internal polity.), a state or other organized community or body.
beastie wrote: What entire nation was exterminated? Once again, under LGT, you can't really use this term, an "entire nation" being "exterminated".
Please check the definitions above so you will understand what is being discussed.
Here's another reference, this time from General Conference. That's up to Charity's bar.
Ensign » 1975 » November
America’s Destiny
President Marion G. Romney
Second Counselor in the First Presidency
In the western part of the state of New York near Palmyra is a prominent hill known as the “hill Cumorah.” (Morm. 6:6.) On July twenty-fifth of this year, as I stood on the crest of that hill admiring with awe the breathtaking panorama which stretched out before me on every hand, my mind reverted to the events which occurred in that vicinity some twenty-five centuries ago—events which brought to an end the great Jaredite nation.
You who are acquainted with the Book of Mormon will recall that during the final campaign of the fratricidal war between the armies led by Shiz and those led by Coriantumr “nearly two millions” of Coriantumr’s people had been slain by the sword; “two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children.” (Ether 15:2.)
As the conflict intensified, all the people who had not been slain—men “with their wives and their children” (Ether 15:15)—gathered about that hill Cumorah (see Ether 15:11).
Elder Mark E. Petersen
Of the Council of the Twelve
Moroni’s father was commander of the armies of this ancient people, known as Nephites. His name was Mormon. The war of which we speak took place here in America some four hundred years after Christ. (See Morm. 6.)
As the fighting neared its end, Mormon gathered the remnant of his forces about a hill which they called Cumorah, located in what is now the western part of the state of New York.
Whoops!
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
beastie wrote:Yet another from General Conference:
Ensign » 1978 » November The Last Words of Moroni
Elder Mark E. Petersen Of the Council of the Twelve
Moroni’s father was commander of the armies of this ancient people, known as Nephites. His name was Mormon. The war of which we speak took place here in America some four hundred years after Christ. (See Morm. 6.)
As the fighting neared its end, Mormon gathered the remnant of his forces about a hill which they called Cumorah, located in what is now the western part of the state of New York.
And you have totally misread and misunderstood the word "principal." It means most important, not % of DNA in the cells.
OK... apologists assert that the whole group,Nephites and Lamanites comprised not much more than a large extended family.. the "wars" were more like neighborhood squabbles with wooden sticks. Think, a little gang violence here.
How in the world could this very small and insignificant group of folks be the most important of all the ancestors of the Native Americans?
Seriously, this is silliness. ;-)
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
marg wrote: Once you started telling me I was being influenced by "satan's minions" I realized I was conversing with a nut-case. I just hope you aren't dangerous.
I am only a nut job if I am wrong.
Really? As a psychologist by training do you actually believe that?
The road is beautiful, treacherous, and full of twists and turns.
beastie wrote:What's the problem between this and LGT? It's the two Cumorahs theory, of course. No battle took place on "that hill" in western New York.
And you know that how? Oh, before you say there weren't any great piles of bones, when was the last time you went through the midwest? Did you notice any big piles of buffalo bones? Estimates vary, but one observer wrote that 7.5 million buffalo were slaughtered in just a two year period, 1873-74. And that was 130 years ago, not a thousand.
I know what the LGT suggests. But you can't say for sure.
And you know that how? Oh, before you say there weren't any great piles of bones, when was the last time you went through the midwest? Did you notice any big piles of buffalo bones? Estimates vary, but one observer wrote that 7.5 million buffalo were slaughtered in just a two year period, 1873-74. And that was 130 years ago, not a thousand.
I know what the LGT suggests. But you can't say for sure.
What in the?????
You really just don't adhere to LGT. You are bending certain things to accommodate pesky issues like DNA, but, obviously, in the end you think that the main final war may really have been in NY!!!
So either you don't really adhere to LGT and only agree with apologists on FAIR/MAD because they are persuasive at the moment, or you really don't understand LGT. There is no way, under LGT, that the final battle between Nephites and lamanites took place in NY.
I would suggest you stop defending something you really don't believe in.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.