TA DA!!! My Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica website

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_LCD2YOU
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Post by _LCD2YOU »

Ray A wrote:
LCD2YOU wrote:Quite a few, why?
How many is "quite a few"? One? Two, three? Have you read, for example, Book of Mormon Authorship Revisited: The Evidence for Ancient Origins (FARMS, 1997)

Or, Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon, (FARMS, 2002, edited by Donald W. Parry, Daniel C. Peterson, and John W. Welch)

How many issues of the FARMS Review have you read? Still no answer to that.

The point is if you're going to criticise something you must first be familiar with it. Then your criticism can be taken seriously.
Wow. Just dismiss someone, why? Because you don't feel like it?

Here's an idea. Instead of shooting the messenger, why don't you try to actually engage me? If I am that ignorant, you can crow all you want and go off and play hero to other TBMs. Or are you saying you can't handle it?
Knowledge is Power
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_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

LCD2YOU wrote:Wow. Just dismiss someone, why? Because you don't feel like it?

Here's an idea. Instead of shooting the messenger, why don't you try to actually engage me. Or are you saying you can't handle it?


The messenger has no credibility. Do you think I'm going to waste my time on my last day off engaging someone who criticises something they know nothing about? I'd rather email friends (with credibility), which I'm doing.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Forgive me, Ray, when you stated you had nearly “finished” my website and your primary criticism was that I wasn’t referencing the opposing viewpoint, I thought you meant you had, you know, nearly finished my website and had noticed that I wasn’t referencing the opposing viewpoint. I didn’t realize this was code for “I’m almost finished with the horses section and think beastie should have cited Sorenson’s specific rebuttal.

So here is the section Ray thinks contains such a stellar rebuttal that I was seriously remiss not to explore it in detail.


The fact that scientists generally doubt the presence of any animals other than those they have "authoritatively" agreed upon so far does not mean that they will not change their minds in the future (p. 305). A classic case involves the "chicken." George F. Carter, emeritus professor of geography at Texas A & M University, is completing the editing of a volume of papers (assisted by a F.A.R.M.S. grant) to be published by TAMU Press that covers evidence for the New World occurrence of this fowl before the time of Columbus. He and others have published on the topic previously.120 He has assembled a wide range of evidence—from zoology, archaeology, history, linguistics and ethnography—that has been long ignored or resisted by conventional scientists, which demonstrates that at least one race, and probably more than one, of the Old World domestic chicken was present and used in the New World (mainly for sacrifice) before the Spaniards brought their birds from across the Atlantic. Actual chicken bones have been found over the last fifty years at several sites in the western United States without their being acknowledged in the formal literature. The bones exist and they were dug up by legitimate archaeologists, but they have been tucked away undiscussed—some for many years—because "everybody knows there were no chickens before the Spaniards arrived." Carter's volume will demand these be properly reconsidered. Yet this is only a little more scandalous than the neglect given the possibility that real horse bones have been found in Mesoamerica dating to the time of the great civilizations.121

Matheny's treatment of the horse illustrates, again, how carefully one must read the scriptural text before attempting to compare it with outside information. She assumes that the "Jaredites and Nephites . . . were well-acquainted with horses" in the Old World, hence they would not "have mistaken a deer or a tapir for a horse" (pp. 307-8). But we do not know whether or not the Jaredite party were "well-acquainted with horses." The text says nothing about the subject in relation to their land of origin. No one knows from exactly what part of the Near East they began their journey to America. In general we suppose it was Mesopotamia, but even if that should be correct, were horses common, rare, or unknown there, or were they domesticated at all at ca. 3000 B.C.? Whatever the case for their homeland, the Jaredite party's trip across Eurasia and the ocean consumed years, after which few if any of the pioneering generation in the new land may have survived long enough to tap their memories regarding animals in their original land as they encountered fauna in the New World. (The only mention of "horses" in their record, in Ether 9:19, comes generations after the landing.) As we have the Book of Ether through Moroni's translation, I assume that the term "horse" in Ether 9:19 is from him and refers to the same beast to which the name is applied in Mormon's record.

Of course Nephi and his cohorts certainly knew horses, yet keep in mind that the Hebrew term for horse, sus, means basically "to leap," and other ("leaping") animals, including the swallow, bore related names.122 The fact that deer are also leapers might have justified the early Nephites in applying to them a Hebrew name that had been applied to the horse in Nephi's Jerusalem. (Compare Egyptian ss, "horse," and shs, antelope; note also, in the Mixtecan language of Mexico, yi-su, "deer.")123 But nowhere in the scriptural text do we get a definite answer to the question of how the Jaredite/Nephite "horse" relates to the animal kingdom as we know it. There are other thought-provoking examples of possible ambiguity in Nephi's Hebrew nomenclature which Joseph Smith's English translation of, say, 1 Nephi 18:25 may not adequately reflect: the word for ox, in Hebrew aluph, was from a root meaning "tame" or "gentle," which could also be applied to a friend. (Could it apply to a tapir?) Another Hebrew word was teo, "wild ox," but it also applied to a species of gazelle.124 One of nine Hebrew words for sheep, zemer, is translated in different versions of the Bible as both "mountain sheep" and "rock-goat," while one Jewish scholar believes it to mean an antelope.125 And if someone balks at the idea that Joseph Smith may not have translated every term "correctly," consider the enigmatic statement in Enos 1:21, the Nephites "did raise . . . flocks of herds." As I noted, this is quite surely a Hebraism, for Hebrew baqar translates as "ox," or "cattle," or "herd."126 I suppose that Joseph was "right," although in English the translation is more than puzzling.

It is not just the Book of Mormon text that is obscure, however. The Spaniards were very unclear about some of their encounters with newly discovered American animals. They left behind in their historical records a mishmash of names for animals which we know today by other labels.127 Were they "mistaken," as Matheny thinks the Jaredites would have been, when the Europeans called bison "cows," the turkey a "peacock," pronghorn antelope "animals like flocks of sheep," or the tapir "a species of buffalo of the size and somewhat looking like an ass?" If the Spaniards made ad hoc, puzzling naming decisions when they discovered and labelled New World animals, I grant the same option to the people of Lehi. We reveal our ethnocentrism if we demand nice natural-science logic on their part when we see the strange names applied by the Europeans.128 Those like Matheny who question my interpretations for Book of Mormon animal names at least ought to become informed on the topic by mastering the literature on documented cases of terminological ambiguity. I've shown where to begin, not how to conclude.

My critic goes on to doubt that deer were ridden in Mesoamerica—an interesting possibility that I suggested. She turns to a selection of representations of human-animal pairs, all from the Maya lowlands, outside the Book of Mormon area I recognize. She cites guesses by archaeologists about what those scenes might or might not mean. Her result is that the question of whether deer were ridden is left up in the air. But she ignores ethnohistoric information laid out by Professor Dibble in the department where she graduated, which tells us about the Aztecs' encounter with Spanish horses. They spoke of "the deer-which-carried-men-upon-their-backs, called horses."129 Such information shows that there is nothing inherently implausible in the idea. (In Siberia deer have been ridden for centuries.)

But if one is going to try to make sense of Nephite or Jaredite animal use, the need—once more—is to read the Book of Mormon text meticulously. So I hasten to note that the Book of Mormon says nothing to suggest that deer, or any other animals, were ever ridden. The only reason I raised the matter in An Ancient American Setting was to show that the role of animals in Mesoamerican cultures was probably more varied and extensive than routine scholars have supposed.130 Two references in Mosiah suggest that "burdens" were placed on an animal called an "ass."131 But all verbs and adjectives in the Book of Mormon text relating to animal use need careful study. Neither "domesticated" nor an equivalent term occurs, for example. The Jaredites are said to have "had" certain animals,132 and the Nephites "did raise" flocks, according to Enos 1:21.133 "Horses and chariots" were used to "conduct" (what an enigmatic verb!) a party from place to place within the general land of Nephi (Alma 18:9-12). Then 3 Nephi 4:4 lumps "horses" with "provisions" and "cattle, and flocks of every kind"—as food supply—which the Nephites accumulated "that they might subsist." Clearly, we need to get on with the basic textual study on this topic. To that end I included in "Animals in the Book of Mormon" an exhaustive appendix, "Animal References in the Book of Mormon." I wish Matheny had done some of that spadework instead of just giving opinions.

The note about biological characteristics of American populations in relation to the Book of Mormon (p. 310) shows overconfident reliance on "mainstream" physical anthropology. Matheny could well engage in broader study of the subject, going beyond the selective "top 40" lists of acceptable literature favored by standard American physical anthropologists. Of particular value would be reading in the history of this sub-discipline, starting perhaps with Juan Comas.134 He makes it apparent that U.S. "mainstream biological anthropology" is paradigm- (and clique-) limited so as to include certain researchers, like the trendy, much-published Christy Turner, but to exclude arbitrarily an Andrzej Wierçinski (and, with a condescending smile, most other physical anthropologists outside the USA).135

Incidentally, while it is true that "most features of cranial morphology are considered to be very responsive to environmental change" by physical anthropologists today, that has not been demonstrated but largely assumed.



With the exception of the bolded sentence, which I will deal with in a moment, the bulk of his rebuttal was to simply repeat his assertion that the “horse” could be a naming or translation error. Did I deal with this in my essay? Perhaps someone who reads more carefully than Ray will notice that the entire tapir section was dealing with this theory. As I explained extensively in the essay, even if the “horse” was really animal X, one can still judge by the context of animal X in the Book of Mormon whether or not this is a feasible alternative.

In regards to the bolded sentence, how am I supposed to respond to information that may be a “possibility”?? This rumor has been floating around the internet for years, without any appearance of the remarkable discovery. Any citations desperate folks can dig up that hint otherwise usually date from the fifties or earlier, when radio-carbon dating was more unreliable.

Considering how sloppy Sorenson has been with his own research, he has a lot of nerve suggesting the wider Mesoamerican archaeological community has been negligent in the horse question.

Now, yes, I could have included this in my essay, and maybe for Ray’s sake, I will edit it in. But was this rebuttal really so significant that my essay was notably lacking in not referencing or citing it in particular? Not in my opinion. I don’t have the time or the inclination to include every bit of apologia on the subject, unless it offers something significant.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_LCD2YOU
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Post by _LCD2YOU »

beastie wrote:Forgive me, Ray, when you stated you had nearly “finished” my website and your primary criticism was that I wasn’t referencing the opposing viewpoint, I thought you meant you had, you know, nearly finished my website and had noticed that I wasn’t referencing the opposing viewpoint. I didn’t realize this was code for “I’m almost finished with the horses section and think beastie should have cited Sorenson’s specific rebuttal.

So here is the section Ray thinks contains such a stellar rebuttal that I was seriously remiss not to explore it in detail.
Pure wishful thinking
With the exception of the bolded sentence, which I will deal with in a moment, the bulk of his rebuttal was to simply repeat his assertion that the “horse” could be a naming or translation error. Did I deal with this in my essay? Perhaps someone who reads more carefully than Ray will notice that the entire tapir section was dealing with this theory. As I explained extensively in the essay, even if the “horse” was really animal X, one can still judge by the context of animal X in the Book of Mormon whether or not this is a feasible alternative.

In regards to the bolded sentence, how am I supposed to respond to information that may be a “possibility”?? This rumor has been floating around the internet for years, without any appearance of the remarkable discovery. Any citations desperate folks can dig up that hint otherwise usually date from the fifties or earlier, when radio-carbon dating was more unreliable.

Considering how sloppy Sorenson has been with his own research, he has a lot of nerve suggesting the wider Mesoamerican archaeological community has been negligent in the horse question.

Now, yes, I could have included this in my essay, and maybe for Ray’s sake, I will edit it in. But was this rebuttal really so significant that my essay was notably lacking in not referencing or citing it in particular? Not in my opinion. I don’t have the time or the inclination to include every bit of apologia on the subject, unless it offers something significant.
I forget, but wasn't there two animals mentioned in Mormon writings that are not known to the readers today? If so, then why did Lehi call Tapirs Horses when they clearly weren't?

Also, as others have continually pointed out there Ray, if someone is going to postulate a change of animals, Horse to Tapir it is up to them to do the leg work.

If I say that "Wormholes are out there and we can travel cross them", it is up to me to show the evidence and pony up.

Besides, doesn't BYU have an archeology/paleontology department? Why don't they actually test the feasibility?

One small issue would be the size of the Tapir. The biggest get to 700 pounds and their eyesight sucks. A "tapir-rider" would need to be a small person. I thought the riders of the "horses" in the Book of Mormon were large, manly men.
Knowledge is Power
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Study Hard and
Become EVIL!
_marg

Post by _marg »

Hi Beastie,

Your site looks great. I read the first page, will get to your other pages eventually. I really liked how clear and straight forward you write. I liked all the background wall papers, did not find them the least bit distracting, or that they made the site look unprofessional.
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

beastie wrote:So here is the section Ray thinks contains such a stellar rebuttal that I was seriously remiss not to explore it in detail.........


I think it is actually important, as Sorenson makes a number of clarifications about his views, as anyone who reads it can see. I don't have the time for detail now, as my play time for this week is quickly drawing to a close. But I'll give one quick reference/clarification which I find important:

But if one is going to try to make sense of Nephite or Jaredite animal use, the need—once more—is to read the Book of Mormon text meticulously. So I hasten to note that the Book of Mormon says nothing to suggest that deer, or any other animals, were ever ridden. The only reason I raised the matter in An Ancient American Setting was to show that the role of animals in Mesoamerican cultures was probably more varied and extensive than routine scholars have supposed.


An Ancient American Setting is ten years older than this article, so I would think reference to a later article is important, and he clarified why he used this example in his previous book.


beastie wrote:With the exception of the bolded sentence, which I will deal with in a moment, the bulk of his rebuttal was to simply repeat his assertion that the “horse” could be a naming or translation error.


He didn't quite say that, he said it may not have been used "correctly" (quotation marks his own). That's different than an error. In other words he (Joseph Smith) used the closest word to what was in the original. Most languages cannot be translated literally. Try translating Arabic into English. That's why Muslims say the Koran doesn't have the same effect in English as it does in Arabic.

beastie wrote:Did I deal with this in my essay? Perhaps someone who reads more carefully than Ray will notice that the entire tapir section was dealing with this theory. As I explained extensively in the essay, even if the “horse” was really animal X, one can still judge by the context of animal X in the Book of Mormon whether or not this is a feasible alternative.


I understood your point. But maybe you need to understand Sorenson's better.

beastie wrote:Now, yes, I could have included this in my essay, and maybe for Ray’s sake, I will edit it in. But was this rebuttal really so significant that my essay was notably lacking in not referencing or citing it in particular? Not in my opinion. I don’t have the time or the inclination to include every bit of apologia on the subject, unless it offers something significant.


That's your choice, but I'm not the one who is going to be your main critic. I think FARMS will take an interest in this. Just my opinion. And I don't have time to go through this any more this week, but I'll be back next week.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

He didn't "clarify" anything, he just tried to add more support for the stance he already stated. Parsing over whether or not one should call it an 'error' is a game of semantics. No matter what phrase you use ("not correctly" or "error"), my point is that the animal X should fit the context of the Book of Mormon.

FARMs is more than welcome to give their input. Hopefully they will have more substance than what you've offered so far.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Thanks, marg. I think that since I applied scottie's suggestions the background is not intrusive anymore. I'm pretty happy with the way it looks right now and am going to now focus on adding more material. Due to the fact that I'm back at work, it may take a while. :(
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_LCD2YOU
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Post by _LCD2YOU »

Ray A wrote:
LCD2YOU wrote:Wow. Just dismiss someone, why? Because you don't feel like it?

Here's an idea. Instead of shooting the messenger, why don't you try to actually engage me. Or are you saying you can't handle it?


The messenger has no credibility. Do you think I'm going to waste my time on my last day off engaging someone who criticises something they know nothing about? I'd rather email friends (with credibility), which I'm doing.
Hehe. I see. By "credibility" you mean people with your PoV? What a small and pointless little world you live in.

See, I've read the tripe from Mormon Apologists. Like that "In the Footsteps of Lehi". If there ever was a bunch of wishful thinking, attempts to confuse the issue with "what ifs". In other words typical apologetic BS. Tell oh master of the dodge and whine, do you know all the apologetics of say, Islam? But yet they would not be correct, right? What a worm.

As for credibility, you have none. Nor do you have a spine. Oh well. You'll say more stupid things and I'll pounce.

Any bets he attacks me again or will he engage in discussion? My money is on the former.
Knowledge is Power
Power Corrupts
Study Hard and
Become EVIL!
_LCD2YOU
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Post by _LCD2YOU »

Ah Ray, you got my dander up there boy.
Ray A wrote:
beastie wrote:So here is the section Ray thinks contains such a stellar rebuttal that I was seriously remiss not to explore it in detail.........
I think it is actually important, as Sorenson makes a number of clarifications about his views, as anyone who reads it can see. I don't have the time for detail now, as my play time for this week is quickly drawing to a close. But I'll give one quick reference/clarification which I find important:
But if one is going to try to make sense of Nephite or Jaredite animal use, the need—once more—is to read the Book of Mormon text meticulously.
What Sorenson is actually saying is for the reader to suspend any critical thinking and take the Book of Mormon the way he does. Without thought and on faith. He offers no new evidence just more assertions of the Book of Mormon.

One would guess that Sorenson has "meticulously read the Book of Mormon. Even he can't make it work. All he has done is attempt to deflect the question and make doubt in the minds who want to believe. Those who are looking for evidence are given nothing but hand waving and unsupported assertions.
Ray A wrote:
Sorenson? wrote:So I hasten to note that the Book of Mormon says nothing to suggest that deer, or any other animals, were ever ridden. The only reason I raised the matter in An Ancient American Setting was to show that the role of animals in Mesoamerican cultures was probably more varied and extensive than routine scholars have supposed.
Nice swipe. Too bad that his assertions have nothing to do with evidence but only what he wants it to say. If Sorenson was a real researcher, he would be leading the attempt at finding REAL EVIDENCE to show that that was true. The problem is that Sorenson knows there is no evidence so hand waiving and raising doubt in the minds who want the doubt so they can't see the real issue: Namely the Book of Mormon is a Fraud. It lies about what happened in MesoAmerica and it is Con-Man made.
Ray A wrote:An Ancient American Setting is ten years older than this article, so I would think reference to a later article is important, and he clarified why he used this example in his previous book.
He did nothing of the sort. All Sorenson does, along with all Mormon Apologists, reuse old material and put a new spin on it.

Ever look at the references used in many apologists works? They use refs from their own and other apologists. Sometimes, they use may use blurbs from (mis) quoted sources.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Knowledge is Power
Power Corrupts
Study Hard and
Become EVIL!
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