Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

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_dartagnan
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _dartagnan »

Ya think? So then why do you, dart, suddenly emphasize the importance of executive experience only when comparing Palin to Obama????

Because, you idiot, that is precisely why Palin is more experienced. I explained this to you before very carefully. If my boss asks me why I hired someone to build a house with 5 years experience over someone with 10, I would explain that the person with five has actually built houses while the other has only passed laws regarding home ownership. For you to sit there and keep going on and on as if this is some kind of ad hoc qualification, only shows your own ignorance. If you can get someone with precise experience, why wouldn't you? McCain wants real change, and he proved it. He isn't pulling the typical old school attack dog politician to his side like Obama chose to do. Obama is good at rehearsing slogans but McCain picks the people who have made these slogans a reality. Talk is cheap, but that is all Obama has to offer. He proves he hasn't the faintest clue what he is doing. His refusal to support the surge in Iraq proved embarrassing to his own judgment. He and liberals like yourself have been counting on Iraq to fail. You need it to fail. If it turns out to be a good thing, your entire anti-Bush universe implodes.
When comparing Obama to McCain, suddenly you assert that it's not a requirement nor the most common experience.

"Suddenly"? You asked and I answered, so what makes this so "sudden"? You just keep building this straw man and misrepresenting what has actually been argued. Your silly "McCain can no longer argue XYZ" is ridiculous, and you say this because you simply haven't a clue what you're talking about.
If you are actually going to pretend that McCain's camp has NOT used the lack of experience as a major attack, you are even less observant than I already suspected.

So in other words, you can't provide specifics. You just want to keep ranting on and on with this ridiculous "McCain can no longer argue experience matters..." straw man. He can because his pick has enough experience to take a leadership role. She has proven herself on that front., Obama has not. Period.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_dartagnan
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _dartagnan »

Oh so you whip out a Karl Rove citation and think you've proved something? Rove didn't even come close tos aying this governor was unqualifed. Instead he said he was "able but undistinguished" because he had not done any big things in his career.

This doesn't even begin to compare to Palin.

Besides, I see you're forced to shift your ground. Since when in the hell were we talking about what Karl Rove has argued?
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _Jason Bourne »


The dichotomy is specifically for people who insist that executive experience counts in some way that legislative experience does not. If you are going to hold that standard in comparing Palin to Obama, then fairness requires you to hold that standard while evaluating McCain's resume.



No it does not. And I already outlines why. McCain had 28 years in congress. Obama 2. And I do not see anyone arguing that executive experience always Trump's legislative just that both Obama and Palin have few years of experience but that Palin's as an executive means more than Obama's at least as far as being president.

My main point in all this was to show how McCain can no longer use the "not enough experience" charge against Obama, since he has chosen someone with even less experience and declared her ready to be president.



Perhaps but it is still fairly clear that while she is inexperienced she has more than Obama as far as running a government.

I believe I am correct in this assertion, and have read various reports already stating that the McCain camp has decided to retire the "not enough experience" tactic. Ya think?


Personally I would rather have them all focus in issues.

For me the war is a big one, and the economy. Who is better able to handle these. I have to weight these over other more liberal issues I do not like about Obama and decide if the war in Iraq is enough to tilt me towards him.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Anyway, the hypocrisy, as I'm trying to point out, IS on both sides. by the way, isn't JC Watts a popular Congressman from Oklahoma? And a Republican? I think racial divisions are fading away. I think the "good old boys" are more concerned with their values, and if someone, regardless of color, will stand up for those values. Change is happening, but it comes slowly. And sometimes, as exemplified by Leftist hatred toward Governor Palin and Senator Clinton, all the sugarcoating and "open-minded, tolerant, and diverse" facades fall away and reveal the truly ugly face behind all the flattering words.


Watts is a former republican and conservative congressman from Oklahoma and appears to be supporting Obama.
_beastie
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _beastie »

I had no idea that dart was actually going to challenge me on my assertion that McCain has attacked Obama for his lack of experience. My Rove quote was not offered as a rebuttal to that, but instead to underline the irony of Rove predicted that Obama would be the one to make a VP choice based on who could get him elected, versus who could help him govern. Do even the McCain supporters suggest that, out of all the other possibilities, Palin was the most qualified to help McCain govern???

But, at any rate, here’s evidence that McCain has attacked Obama for his lack of experience, for those who have been living under the rock with dart.

WashingtonPost

McCain Attacks Obama as Inexperienced
By Juliet Eilperin
STOCKTON, Calif. -- At a boisterous rally that was interrupted twice by antiwar protesters, Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) launched into a scathing attack on Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.), mocking his youth, his lack of foreign policy experience and his support for pork-barrel projects.

"I have the knowledge, the background and the judgment to lead this nation. My opponent does not," he said before a crowd of a couple hundred supporters at an airport hangar. Then, poking fun at the 46-year-old Democratic front-runner, McCain, 71, added: "I admire and respect Senator Obama. For a young man with very little experience, he's done very well. For his very, very great lack of experience and knowledge of the issues, he's been very successful."


Wall Street journal cited McCain camp using Biden’s former argument to bolster their own that Obama does not have enough experience:

Wall Street

SEDONA, Ariz. -- John McCain's campaign pounced quickly Saturday morning to attack Barack Obama's running mate Sen. Joe Biden by using the Delaware politician's own words against him.
The Republicans have been gathering ammunition against Sen. Biden for weeks now and didn't have to look very far. Early in the lengthy presidential primary season, while he was still a candidate himself, Sen. Biden criticized Sen. Obama's inexperience on several occasions, as well as his foreign policy naiveté.
he idea of nominating someone without "unimpeachable credentials on national security and foreign policy," Sen. Biden said during a radio interview in August 2007, would be "a tragic mistake."
"There has been no harsher critic of Barack Obama's lack of experience than Joe Biden," said McCain spokesman Ben Porritt. "Biden has denounced Barack Obama's poor foreign policy judgment and has strongly argued in his own words what Americans are quickly realizing -- that Barack Obama is not ready to be President."


McCain camp using the Clintons to bolster their argument that Obama is not “ready to lead”:
(CNN) -- Sen. Hillary Clinton may have endorsed Sen. Barack Obama for president in a speech at the Democratic National Convention Tuesday night, but Sen. John McCain's campaign said she stopped short of saying that he is ready to lead the country.
"Sen. Clinton ran her presidential campaign making clear that Barack Obama is not prepared to lead as commander in chief. Nowhere tonight did she alter that assessment. Nowhere tonight did she say that Barack Obama is ready to lead," McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds said in a statement.
"Millions of Hillary Clinton supporters and millions of Americans remain concerned about whether Barack Obama is ready to be president."

International Herald Tribune
Despite a three-month head start, Senator John McCain has struggled to solidify lines of attack against Senator Barack Obama for the general election, Republican operatives say and some of his own advisers acknowledge, running into problems that bedeviled Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton's primary campaign against Obama.
The McCain camp faces the challenge of negatively defining an opponent who has a relatively short tenure in office and a thin record to dissect, unlike longer-serving senators like Clinton or John Kerry, the 2004 Democratic presidential nominee. McCain advisers also say they are wary of unleashing allies to attack Obama, given how some conservatives have overstepped and been criticized for racially tinged remarks.
McCain shook up the management of his campaign on Wednesday, in part because of concern within his organization and among Republicans generally about his difficulty in putting Obama on the defensive.
Like those unleashed by Clinton's team in the winter and spring, the McCain camp's attacks on Obama have had a lurching quality for weeks now, several Republicans said in interviews. Some days McCain or his allies have gone after Obama's relative youth and inexperience; other days they have criticized his shifting positions (on public campaign financing) or policy stands (on guns and gasoline prices) or even his and his wife's patriotism.

And, of course, there is the “dangerously unprepared” ad that took Obama’s comments about Iran out of context, as verified by Factcheck
The ad says Iran is "threatening to eliminate Israel" and implies that Obama fails to acknowledge the threat:
McCain ad: Terrorism, destroying Israel, those aren't "serious threats"? Obama – dangerously unprepared to be president.
But on the contrary, when Obama spoke to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee in June, he told that pro-Israel audience that "there is no greater threat to Israel – or to the peace and stability of the region – than Iran." He also said this:
Obama, June 4: The Iranian regime supports violent extremists and challenges us across the region. It pursues a nuclear capability that could spark a dangerous arms race and raise the prospect of a transfer of nuclear know-how to terrorists. Its president denies the Holocaust and threatens to wipe Israel off the map. The danger from Iran is grave, it is real, and my goal will be to eliminate this threat.
We call a foul ball on this one. By separating Obama's words from their context, and from his other comments on the subject, McCain's ad distorts Obama's stated views on Iran.


I hereby predict that, in response to this evidence that the McCain camp has, indeed, attacked Obama for his lack of experience, Dart will pretend that he never doubted that McCain has been doing so, and will instead argue that McCain was right on all of these attacks. In the process, he will ignore my main point, which is that McCain’s choice of Palin has neutered that plan of attack.

Just in case anyone other than Dart is suffering from confusion about my main point – I brought this up to demonstrate one point – that the Palin choice will weaken this particular line of attack that McCain was using against Obama. I even stated that I thought it was one of McCain’s strongest arguments against Obama, and that I also had concerns about his lack of experience, compared to Hillary. See my statement that prompted the subsequent comments:
Beastie:
I think it was a political mistake because, in declaring Palin "ready to be president", McCain has eliminated what may have been his most effective criticism of Obama, which was that lack of experience rendered him not ready to be president.

Beastie:
To be honest, though, I really did think McCain's strongest point against Obama was lack of experience, because that concerned me, too. So when I pointed out that I thought the Palin appointment was a mistake because it neutered that charge, I wasn't being politically cynical, but stating what I think is reality. When someone has had a fairly short political life, much more is unknown. I felt like Hillary was "safer" in that regard, although I was disappointed in how long it took her to admit that going into Iraq was a mistake, and I don't like the fact that she took a lot of money from insurance lobbyists. So I'm happy he picked Biden, who has a clear record of great foreign affair credentials. I do think Obama picked someone who could really help him govern effectively, while McCain picked someone he hoped would get him elected.

I have to say that the fact that some of you are seemingly incapable of even admitting this one point – that the Palin choice neutered McCain’s “lack of experience” attack – demonstrates that some of you are just as biased as I am on this issue, but less able to admit it.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

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_antishock8
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _antishock8 »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Anyway, the hypocrisy, as I'm trying to point out, IS on both sides. by the way, isn't JC Watts a popular Congressman from Oklahoma? And a Republican? I think racial divisions are fading away. I think the "good old boys" are more concerned with their values, and if someone, regardless of color, will stand up for those values. Change is happening, but it comes slowly. And sometimes, as exemplified by Leftist hatred toward Governor Palin and Senator Clinton, all the sugarcoating and "open-minded, tolerant, and diverse" facades fall away and reveal the truly ugly face behind all the flattering words.


Watts is a former republican and conservative congressman from Oklahoma and appears to be supporting Obama.


Ah. Good point. So much for ideology trumping race. Lol... I guess that's appropriate for this thread, though. Oh, I heard General Powell is leaning for Obama, too. What a shame. I was hoping people were moving beyond that.
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Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_beastie
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _beastie »

No it does not. And I already outlines why. McCain had 28 years in congress. Obama 2. And I do not see anyone arguing that executive experience always Trump's legislative just that both Obama and Palin have few years of experience but that Palin's as an executive means more than Obama's at least as far as being president.


My point is that in order for McCain's supporters to continue to attack Obama due to his lack of experience, they will have to alter their argument as dart has demonstrated. This is a much less persuasive line of attack, because it relies on the willingness to weight Palin's gubernatorial experience as meaning more than Obama's legislative experience. As dart had to admit above, when I pointed out McCain's lack of executive experience, executive experience is not a requirement for the job nor is it a common denominator in presidents overall, or successful presidents in particular.

The fact is that McCain has declared Obama "dangerously unprepared to lead", and has attacked his lack of experience to bolster that charge. Yet, he now has declared Palin "ready to be president". Palin, who, by her own admission, hasn't even thought much about the war in Iraq, is "ready to be president" because she was the governor of Alaska.

Believe me, even if some of you all don't recognize it, I am quite certain that McCain recognizes that he can no longer use the lack of experience line of attack. As I said, that was one cost of his choice of Palin as VP. Obviously he thought it was worth it. It may have been, only time will tell.

Personally, I think someone whose main experience in government is as governor can be ready to be president. (see Bill Clinton) That fact, in and of itself, does not disqualify Palin. For me, there are other factors (such as not thinking much about Iraq) that are an issue. I am just pointing out that McCain has lost one of his lines of attack.

Palin "I Haven't Focused Much On Iraq"
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _beastie »

Ah. Good point. So much for ideology trumping race. Lol... I guess that's appropriate for this thread, though. Oh, I heard General Powell is leaning for Obama, too. What a shame. I was hoping people were moving beyond that.


I don't know about Watts, but given Powell's issues with going into Iraq to begin with, I think it's unfair to conclude, at this point, that if he goes for Obama it is due to his race.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_antishock8
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _antishock8 »

beastie wrote:
Ah. Good point. So much for ideology trumping race. Lol... I guess that's appropriate for this thread, though. Oh, I heard General Powell is leaning for Obama, too. What a shame. I was hoping people were moving beyond that.


I don't know about Watts, but given Powell's issues with going into Iraq to begin with, I think it's unfair to conclude, at this point, that if he goes for Obama it is due to his race.


Have you seen polling statistics reference African-Americans and how they're going to vote this election cycle as compared to past cycles? I'm too lazy to find the zogby poll, but I believe AAs are clocking in over 90% for Obama. I can understand the sentiment, though.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_beastie
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Re: Govenor Sarah Palin, Mormonism, Post-Mormonism, Politics

Post by _beastie »

Have you seen polling statistics reference African-Americans and how they're going to vote this election cycle as compared to past cycles? I'm too lazy to find the zogby poll, but I believe AAs are clocking in over 90% for Obama. I can understand the sentiment, though.


No, I haven't seen any polls yet, but I'm sure the above 90% is correct. However, you have to keep in mind that Obama is also a democrat, and AAs historically prefer democrats. The real test would be if the Republican party had nominated a black candidate. I think that many AAs would cross over to vote for the first AA candidate, but I doubt it would be as high as Obama's numbers. However, I also have no doubt that lots of dixiecrats who are now firm republicans would refuse to vote for an AA republican candidate as well.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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