Peterson Pace - "Those who can, do ....."

[_harmony]

But they're clearly out of the Islamic mainstream. So much so, in fact, that even the Islamic Republic of Iran denounced their treatment of women some years back, pronouncing the Taliban tyranny in Aghanistan "the shame of Islam."

The Taliban thinks they are the only ones getting Islam right. Sounds like the same sort of disagreement (albeit on a larger scale) as Christians have with Mormons.

The Taliban's version of Islam appears to many Muslims to be a new-born faith developed, canonized, and interpreted by Taliban scholars with the reclusive supreme leader, Mohammed Omar at the helm giving his stamp of approval for implementation.

source: beliefnet.com

The honesty of Taliban in application of Islamic Law without equivocation or defect was apparent. This confirms the sincerity of the Movement' s objectives in spite of the intimidations of the United Nations to cease it's food relief programmes in Afghanistan. The Movement dealt with intimidations strictly and [ b]suspended education till it reconstruct the educational system upon pure Islamic principles, free from Western Kufur effects.[/b] This is in addition to the establishment of the punishment laws (Al- Hodood) and enforcing Islamic law upon the people in all their transactions.

source: http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/taliban1.htm

Apparently, the Taliban and their scholars disagree with the Arabs and their scholars as to what is the real Islamic law and how it deals with education (and since we see exactly how many women are educated in Afghanistan, I suspect we see the results of that disagreement between Taliban Islamic law and everyone else's Islamic law.) However... all this does is illustrate how Islam... Taliban Islam, it's true, but still by whatever brandname is put on it, it's still Islam... is at the foundation of the plight of Afghan women (which is what I've said all along, even when Daniel was screaming at me.)

[_harmony]

I don't see why that should either. I think there may be a reason Harmony is so passionate about the education of Afghan women that it becomes difficult for her to discuss it calmly and rationally. You also appear passionate about it while yet remaining rational about the problem. I don't wish to give Harmony a blank check for losing her temper, but I don't want her to think that I'm blaming her for being upset. That she's upset is understandable. That anger makes her less rational is also understandable (I get that way too), but not quite so excusable.

Yet I don't really think it's my buisness to correct either of you. I'm just trying to say that there was anger on both sides--leaving aside the question of who was more justified. Leaving out the fact that anger was shown on both sides from Nehor's caricature seemed a bit unfair to me. Plenty in this thread has been unfair. The reason I commented about it in the caricature is because I thought the caricature would just aggrivate the situation for Harmony and I was hoping that maybe my comments would have helped. I new think the precise opposite especially since I've spelled out that I'm not happy with the way she expressed her anger--precisely the thing I was trying to avoid. However, since leaving it alone makes it look like I'm on her side to the condemnation of you, I thought it to be the lesser of two evils at this point. I'm still not trying to condemn her though.

Nevermind, Asbman. Life without passion would be unbearable. I cannot not care, and if I step on an academic's toes in Provo (or a Nehor's in Texas... or anyone else's wherever they are) with my "unjust", "unfair", "shameful", "appallingly ignorant", "complacently judgmental" passion, it won't be the first time. Not only will Daniel never admit he (or his friends, all of whom are in high places even though their hands always seem to be tied while women and girls die in ignorance) may be wrong, he will never admit I'm even halfway right.

It is what it is.

Thanks for not condemning me outright... well, not until Daniel forced you to move to his side. I am, after all, only harmony... and expendable. That too is what it is.

[_Tarski]

I understand your general points, but I'd nevertheless like you to address a final controversy: Have educated Muslim women become so thanks to adherence to Islamic teachings or thanks to departure from Islamic teachings?

Since, as I quoted earlier in the thread, there are plain statements from the Prophet Muhammad (hadith, as they're called) that call for the education of women -- and I could have multiplied them several times -- it seems to me that it would be very difficult to claim that, as a whole, Muslim women who have gained educations have done so as a departure from Islamic teachings.

And it seems to me very difficult to argue that the Muslim schools and universities to which I've provided a number of links, and at which I've spoken, where devoutly Muslim teachers and administrators work to educate devout Muslim girls and women -- and, again, there are many more than I have cited -- regard their efforts to educate Muslim girls and women as a departure from the teachings of Islam.

For what its worth, I have three female Muslim Ph.D. students in a graduate level mathematics class that I teach right currently. They are at the top of the class (There are only about ten in the class). From their dress, they appear to be fairly observant. I think they are from Turkey.

[_marg]

Did you see this exchange in the Celestial, Harmony? Ajax mentions that it looks like women wearing full covering garb are happy, T.D. responds with a counter and specifically mentions wearing a hijab, so the 2 of them are talking about a ful body face covering outfit. DCP's added comment is that he knows women who willingly and happily choose traditional Islamic garb. Since the context of the discussion is a burka it is reasonable to assume that is what he's referring to, if not he certainly should have made it clear. Where is his empathy for women in this situation? He appears to have none.


ajax18 wrote: "In my experience, Islamic women in their full covering and dress don't strike me as depressed or abused. They seem proud of their religious convictions and walk with their heads held high. I think they're happy because they believe in the promises offered them in the next life as well. I don't think this attitude is the result of being beaten down and conditioned to believe they have less potential for happiness than men do. They must see their own good in it somewhere."


T.D: "There is a big difference between women wearing a hijab by choice and women who can't be seen in public without a man, who have to walk behind men, and who are invisible in society, and beaten by their husbands with the blessings of Allah.

Have you ever actually spoken to women who live this way?

Would YOU like living this way? (Not being able to leave your home without a full black cover where you peek out of the black netting of your mask)? Where you have virtually no rights? Where you can't drive a car? Have to walk behind women and girls as an inferior being?"

DCP: "I've met plenty of such Muslim women myself.

There are, obviously, many oppressed women in the Islamic world. But there are many who willingly and happily choose for themselves to adopt traditional Islamic garb. I know several of them, and I know some of them reasonably well."



Muslim women

[_harmony]

For what its worth, I have three female Muslim Ph.D. students in a graduate level mathematics class that I teach right currently. They are at the top of the class (There are only about ten in the class). From their dress, they appear to be fairly observant. I think they are from Turkey.

If they were from Afghanistan, I'd be jumping up and down, rejoicing. Perhaps you cannot know how disappointed I am that instead, they are from Turkey.

[_harmony]

DCP's added comment is that he knows women who willingly and happily choose traditional Islamic garb. Since the context of the discussion previous to DCP is a burka it is reasonable to assume that is what he's referring to, if not he certainly should have made it clear. Where is his empathy for women in this situation? He appears to have none.

Good grief, marg!? Do we actually agree about something? Can Armageddon be far off?

[_asbestosman]

Thanks for not condemning me outright... well, not until Daniel forced you to move to his side.

Daniel didn't force me to do anything and I take full responsibility for my stupidity.

I am, after all, only harmony... and expendable.

I think you're a decent human being who makes mistakes just like the rest of us. I don't want to dwell on the mistakes too much, so can we stop talking about them? You can change the subject to how stupid I was for butting in or any of my myriad mistakes if you wish.

Personally I'd rather focus on Dr. Shades and Dr. Peterson's line of conversation. It seems more productive and even entertaining, but maybe that's just me.

[_The Nehor]

If they were from Afghanistan, I'd be jumping up and down, rejoicing. Perhaps you cannot know how disappointed I am that instead, they are from Turkey.

Harmony is only happy when the poor and downtrodden succeed.

[_The Nehor]

Nevermind, Asbman. Life without passion would be unbearable. I cannot not care, and if I step on an academic's toes in Provo (or a Nehor's in Texas... or anyone else's wherever they are) with my "unjust", "unfair", "shameful", "appallingly ignorant", "complacently judgmental" passion, it won't be the first time. Not only will Daniel never admit he (or his friends, all of whom are in high places even though their hands always seem to be tied while women and girls die in ignorance) may be wrong, he will never admit I'm even halfway right.

It is what it is.

Thanks for not condemning me outright... well, not until Daniel forced you to move to his side. I am, after all, only harmony... and expendable. That too is what it is.

When passion blinds you to reality it makes you less effective in righting wrongs. If I had a large sum of money that I had decided to use to improve education in Afghanistan who would I give it to? Harmony or DCP? Based on what I've read so far Harmony would go over, blame the problem on religion, insult government leaders for not doing more with scant resources, and harp on endlessly about how unfair it is over there. Based on what I've read so far, DCP has a grasp on the issues over there both positive and negative, knows how to cultivate allies, is respectful of their culture, could show them how Muhammed supports the goals of the money he brings, and would try to help the best people over there become better.

Who would you send?

[_Daniel Peterson]

I agree with your main point. The thing I am less certain about is whether a harsh response was most effective. Perhaps it was. I cannot say.

I responded reasonably softly several times. It did no good. So I decided to try to call Harmony's attention to the sheer unfairness and injustice of what she was saying about me. That did no good, either.

The Taliban thinks they are the only ones getting Islam right.

My point precisely. They don't represent the mainstream of Islam.

The Taliban's version of Islam appears to many Muslims to be a new-born faith developed, canonized, and interpreted by Taliban scholars with the reclusive supreme leader, Mohammed Omar at the helm giving his stamp of approval for implementation.

source: beliefnet.com

My point precisely. The Taliban, an insurgent movement within Afghanistan, do not represent Islam as a whole.

Apparently, the Taliban and their scholars disagree with the Arabs and their scholars [and with the Turks and their scholars, and with the Iranians and their scholars, and with the Pakistanis and their scholars, and with the Indonesians and their scholars, and with the Malays and their scholars, and with the non-Taliban Afghanis and their scholars] as to what is the real Islamic law and how it deals with education

My point precisely. The Taliban don't represent the Islamic tradition in general.

However... all this does is illustrate how Islam... Taliban Islam, it's true, but still by whatever brandname is put on it, it's still Islam... is at the foundation of the plight of Afghan women (which is what I've said all along, even when Daniel was screaming at me.)

It demonstrates that Taliban-style Islam is hostile to the education of women, which, along with Afghanistan's grinding poverty and its remote isolation and its political instability and its horrific terrain and its lack of infrastructure, is a factor in the plight of Afghan women -- a point that has never, ever, been at issue on this thread.

And this isn't merely a matter of "brand name." You can't generalize simple-mindedly from squirrels to all mammals (e.g., whales and humans), or simplistically from desert tortoises to all reptiles (seen any hard-shelled iguanas lately? or any canteloupe-loving crocodiles?), and you can't generalize with reckless abandon from Islam as interpreted by the Taliban to Islam everywhere.