thews wrote:You continue to admit this and ignore that Joseph Smith said he was "translating" them. How do you rationalize Joseph Smith's claim he "translated" the papyri that were in his possession?
With a fifth of good Scotch Tobin can do anything. Go TOBIN!
See my answer below on how Joseph Smith translated.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:If we had the original text and depictions, that would be fine. But as things stand, they are worthless and wrong. If Joseph Smith had realized what needed to be done and proceeded to restore the original writings of Abraham as he wrote them and the depictions, then that would have been marvelous and truly an amazing feat. Since he did not, we are left with nothing useful and a serious question can be raised about if any of the things he did was inspired at all.
So then you think the facsimiles should be removed since they have nothing to do with Abraham's record, but the explanations below them should remain. You say if Joseph had realized, but wouldn't God who is telling him things very specifically let him know and also reveal Abraham's depictions so that the explanations could be attached to them as they are being revealed?
If Joseph Smith had restored the original text and depictions, then the story (and what the depictions showed) would be self-evident to experts in the field. Since we do not have them and Joseph Smith instead speculated about the Egyptian papyri, what he speculated about the Egyptian depictions are useless and should not be included.
Themis, you can keep asking me the same stupid questions over and over again. I'll still give you EXACTLY the same answer. The papyri are Egyptian and have nothing to do with the Book of Abraham.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
See my answer below on how Joseph Smith translated.
You are not answering the question. Why? Joseph Smith said he translated the papyri and it was from the hand of Abraham... that's what he said. You continue to throw Joseph Smith under the bus claiming he didn't know how to translate anything... you would be correct. One more time... this is what Joseph Smith said:
"... with W. W. Phelps and Oliver Cowdery as scribes, I commence the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics, and much to our joy found that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt, etc. - a more full account of which will appear in its place, as I proceed to examine or unfold them. Truly we can say, the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth." (History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 236).
How do you rationalize your claim that Joseph Smith didn't mean what he said regarding "translating" the papyri? Are you calling Joseph Smith a liar?
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. 2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
I've answered this question a dozen times on this forum. I can't help it if you refuse to grasp it. Joseph Smith translated by the gift and power of God, not by knowing the language or the characters.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
I've answered this question a dozen times on this forum. I can't help it if you refuse to grasp it. Joseph Smith translated by the gift and power of God, not by knowing the language or the characters.
Funny that God never mentioned to Joseph that he wasn't really translating anything. God's kind of a idiot, eh?
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain "The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
Tobin wrote:I've answered this question a dozen times on this forum. I can't help it if you refuse to grasp it. Joseph Smith translated by the gift and power of God, not by knowing the language or the characters.
Funny that God never mentioned to Joseph that he wasn't really translating anything. God's kind of a f****r, eh?
Really? Don't be obtuse. I suppose next you'll tell me that Abraham wrote and spoke English too.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:what he speculated about the Egyptian depictions are useless and should not be included.
I read this as saying the facsimiles and explanations for them are not inspired and should not be included in the Book of Abraham, since the explanations are tailor made for the Egyptian facsimiles.
Equality wrote:Funny that God never mentioned to Joseph that he wasn't really translating anything. God's kind of a f****r, eh?
Really? Don't be obtuse. I suppose next you'll tell me that Abraham wrote and spoke English too.
I think what he is saying is that it is funny or odd that God would not tell Joseph that he was not giving him a translation of the papyri as Joseph thought and was only getting an origin story as you suggest God is doing.
Tobin wrote:Really? Don't be obtuse. I suppose next you'll tell me that Abraham wrote and spoke English too.
I think what he is saying is that it is funny or odd that God would not tell Joseph that he was not giving him a translation of the papyri as Joseph thought and was only getting an origin story as you suggest God is doing.
As I've said, this isn't something God drove. God didn't hand the papyri to Joseph Smith and ask him, "Now, go ahead and translate this. It is written by Abraham." This was something of Joseph Smith's doing himself and something he speculated about. It was unnecessary and something he let his pride, lack of knowledge, and other character flaws influence. Do I hold Joseph Smith blameless for what he mistook? No. But it is understandable. What he should have known about the papyri and obvioulsy didn't was up to him to find out from the Lord. It is not God's fault when we misunderstand things and don't seek a clear understanding of what is going on. It is only human nature to be arrogant and assume we know more than we do and something like this is a cautionary tale of what can happen if we let our egos overcome us.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
