Three Powerful Books

[_mentalgymnast]

Physics has always been perfectly compatible with theism. The distinction between an actively intervening God, and a Deist God who sets everything in motion and then just stands back to watch it all unfold under strict causality, is moot. Strict causality means that everything that ever happens is implicit in the initial conditions, and so whoever sets the initial conditions determines everything that ever happens afterwards.

Quantum mechanics does not represent a change from some bad, old, overly rigid concept of determinism to some loose, vague, spiritual New Age view. Quantum mechanics is in a major sense much stricter and stronger in its determinism than classical mechanics. It's extremely rigid and mechanical, not vague and fuzzy at all, and it allows no special role for mind or spirit. The special status of observation in quantum mechanics is for machines like Geiger counters and photomultipliers, not consciousness, and anyway quantum measurement theory is a cludgy jury-rigged part of the theory that is still in place after a hundred-odd years just because physics is hard.

Quantum mechanics is strange, but not mystically Oooh-aahh Gee-whiz strange. It's bizarrely and nonsensically strange, like an alien children's game. It's compatible with theism, too, but less comfortably so than classical mechanics is. The God who made a world that runs on quantum mechanics must be quite a different kind of being from us. So it makes no sense for theist apologists to appeal to quantum mechanics in particular, as if it tips the playing field in their favor. We and everything we think of as real might still be ideas in the mind of God, but if so quantum mechanics implies that God's is an alien mind.

Saying that everything boils down to information isn't really an idea because it's a tautology. Many different states of the universe are in principle possible as far as we know. The actual state of the universe is one of them in particular. Specifying one possibility out of many is what is called "information" in communication theory. So Yay, we can now use a new word for what we've known all along. That's all it is. Wheeler was a good theoretical physicist but an even better marketer, so some of his banal observations got attention. None have really gone anywhere so far.

Thanks for your knowledgeable response Physics Guy.

Regards,
MG

[_honorentheos]

There are at least a couple reasons information theory seems to undermine your hopes, MG.

First of all it is fundamentally reductionist. If "It is Bit" then even if the information of yes-no, on-off, whatever is fundamental - there is an information gate or switch involved. That doesn't matter (ha!) if it's the spin of an electron or the position of a quark, the vibration of a string or whatever - the information or bit "is" because of some it that also is. Maybe the it "is" because there is information to exchange but that doesn't change the facts that it results in reduction to a fundamental switch carrying information that operates according to the laws of physics. And remember how you felt about consciousness not being reducable to material properties of the universe? This is exactly what information theory comes down to. Your mind, your soul, is the product of so many on and off switches which are material.

The second way it seems to do damage to your view is in how it operates.. You seem to imagine it as leaving us with a universe that is a operating system programmed towards a conclusion set in motion by a divine programmer. But that's not what it's describing. Instead, it's describing an infinite exchange of information between interactions within a system resulting in emergent and evolving phenomenon. Using a biological analogy, the activity of an ant colony reduces down to each individual ant in the colony constantly exchanging information with it's environment and other ants that affect it's immediate reactions and what it in turn communicates that, in total, produce the activity of the colony. But in no way is there an executive programmer who made the ant colony to do a certain thing. From queen to worker to warrior, each is reacting according to the function of their biology to information they receive that affects what they communicate which produces the activity of the colony as a whole. And that interaction with their environment produces outcomes where survival or extinction occurs at individual levels as well as at the level of the colony, all of which changes the composite biological characteristics of ants in the colony over time which become a part of the overall evolutionary process. So each generation of ant is slightly different from the one that came before it that may result in differences in the information exchange reactions that affect the chain of information exchange and so on and so on and so on...

There isn't room for God in this. The concept isn't compatible. Unless you want to say "god" is the word we use for the emergent qualities of the colony/universe. Or the process as a whole. Or, I don't know. The sublime otherness of the whole maybe. Whatever it is, it wasn't the familial-tribal anthropomorphic deity that emerged out of the pantheon of Semitic myths to become a powerful concept of a Christ who bridges the gaps of individual and collective by trading in the here-and-now for a mansion in heaven that the emerging structure of humanity from tribe to city-state to nation-state in the West symbiotically evolved. And this in turn is evolving into new forms in a post-modern, globalized world even as the impulse to revert to tribalism grows stronger the further we get from it like a rubber band being stretched...Oh wait. It is that in your case.

[_mentalgymnast]

There are at least a couple reasons information theory seems to undermine your hopes, MG.

First of all it is fundamentally reductionist. If "It is Bit" then even if the information of yes-no, on-off, whatever is fundamental - there is an information gate or switch involved. That doesn't matter (ha!) if it's the spin of an electron or the position of a quark, the vibration of a string or whatever - the information or bit "is" because of some it that also is. Maybe the it "is" because there is information to exchange but that doesn't change the facts that it results in reduction to a fundamental switch carrying information that operates according to the laws of physics. And remember how you felt about consciousness not being reducable to material properties of the universe? This is exactly what information theory comes down to. Your mind, your soul, is the product of so many on and off switches which are material.

The second way it seems to do damage to your view is in how it operates.. You seem to imagine it as leaving us with a universe that is a operating system programmed towards a conclusion set in motion by a divine programmer. But that's not what it's describing. Instead, it's describing an infinite exchange of information between interactions within a system resulting in emergent and evolving phenomenon. Using a biological analogy, the activity of an ant colony reduces down to each individual ant in the colony constantly exchanging information with it's environment and other ants that affect it's immediate reactions and what it in turn communicates that, in total, produce the activity of the colony. But in no way is there an executive programmer who made the ant colony to do a certain thing. From queen to worker to warrior, each is reacting according to the function of their biology to information they receive that affects what they communicate which produces the activity of the colony as a whole. And that interaction with their environment produces outcomes where survival or extinction occurs at individual levels as well as at the level of the colony, all of which changes the composite biological characteristics of ants in the colony over time which become a part of the overall evolutionary process. So each generation of ant is slightly different from the one that came before it that may result in differences in the information exchange reactions that affect the chain of information exchange and so on and so on and so on...

There isn't room for God in this. The concept isn't compatible. Unless you want to say "god" is the word we use for the emergent qualities of the colony/universe. Or the process as a whole. Or, I don't know. The sublime otherness of the whole maybe. Whatever it is, it wasn't the familial-tribal anthropomorphic deity that emerged out of the pantheon of Semitic myths to become a powerful concept of a Christ who bridges the gaps of individual and collective by trading in the here-and-now for a mansion in heaven that the emerging structure of humanity from tribe to city-state to nation-state in the West symbiotically evolved. And this in turn is evolving into new forms in a post-modern, globalized world even as the impulse to revert to tribalism grows stronger the further we get from it like a rubber band being stretched...Oh wait. It is that in your case.

Would you agree that at its fundamental level the universe exists as a result of energy and information exchange within and between systems of organized matter? If not, and you have the red pen, fix it. If you agree that matter IS organized, how WAS it originally organized in the first place?

Regards,
MG

[_Morley]

Not sure why a belief in God is being ridiculed, Morely. Some of the greatest minds have and do believe in God. Why would you poke fun at a lesser mind for being a believer?

Laughing at your summary of various topics and ridiculing a generic belief in God are not the same thing, mentalgymnast. How you could confuse the two is lost on me.

Perhaps you should dial back the self-righteous whinging.

[_honorentheos]

Immediately after the big bang it was all energy. The conversion of matter from energy, the emergence of the primary forces etc, are the result of natural phenomenon that emerged as the processes advanced with the emergence and expansion of space-time. Its order is not unlike that of the ant colony. Each infinitesimal interaction influences the whole resulting in emerging structures and organizational behaviors that influence and limit the ones that follow in a cascading and unending chain of events as long as space-time exists.

You are standing at a point in that chain of events and saying, "The fact things are the way they are that allowed me to be here is a miracle! Therefore there must have been an intentional decision made to put things in motion so that miracle could occur!" And then someday you'll die and be eaten by bacteria.

[_honorentheos]

If you now want to question what set that chain of events in motion, the answer is no one knows. And then...

...Unless you want to say "god" is the word we use for the emergent qualities of the colony/universe. Or the process as a whole. Or, I don't know. The sublime otherness of the whole maybe. Whatever it is, it wasn't the familial-tribal anthropomorphic deity that emerged out of the pantheon of Semitic myths to become a powerful concept of a Christ who bridges the gaps of individual and collective by trading in the here-and-now for a mansion in heaven that the emerging structure of humanity from tribe to city-state to nation-state in the West symbiotically evolved. And this in turn is evolving into new forms in a post-modern, globalized world even as the impulse to revert to tribalism grows stronger the further we get from it like a rubber band being stretched...Oh wait. It is that in your case.

[Guest]

Immediately after the big bang it was all energy. The conversion of matter from energy, the emergence of the primary forces etc, are the result of natural phenomenon that emerged as the processes advanced with the emergence and expansion of space-time. Its order is not unlike that of the ant colony. Each infinitesimal interaction influences the whole resulting in emerging structures and organizational behaviors that influence and limit the ones that follow in a cascading and unending chain of events as long as space-time exists.

You are standing at a point in that chain of events and saying, "The fact things are the way they are that allowed me to be here is a miracle! Therefore there must have been an intentional decision made to put things in motion so that miracle could occur!" And then someday you'll die and be eaten by bacteria.

I think it is literally a miracle (hand of God) that life evolved into consciousness. Back to my original question...which I don’t know that you fleshed out a satisfactory answer to:

Would you agree that at its fundamental level the universe exists as a result of energy and information exchange within and between systems of organized matter?

To help us out in going down a path that moves towards answering this question let’s start here:

How did energy and informational flows come to be so complex in themselves, while also complexly entwined? Although hypotheses abound as to how life generally came to be shortly after the Earth cooled sufficiently for it to exist, no current theory satisfactorily entirely predicts how this complex phenomenon not only originated, but persisted and spread to a truly remarkable degree. David Christian said it well, “. . . but at the biological level of complexity, new rules appear as well. Living organisms operate according to distinctive and more open-ended rules of change, which are superimposed on the simpler and more deterministic rules of physics and chemistry.” Also, “So to understand living things, we need a new paradigm, one that takes us beyond the rules of nuclear physics, chemistry, or geology and into the realm of biology” (Christian, 2011, p81). Professor Christian also seems to give primacy to high energy flows as the defining characteristic of complex life: “The rules of biology are made possible by the high degree of precision with which living organisms reproduce. Handling large energy flows are such a delicate task that it requires extremely precise mechanisms; the rule book for creating and re-creating such structures has to be complex, exact, and accurate” (Christian, 2011, p81). Admittedly, metabolism is one of the defining features of life and it has all the features that Christian mentions. However, I would assert that the information needed to realize the complex mechanisms of metabolism, as well as reproduction and evolution is co-equal to energy flows, if not paramount.

Admittedly, it is unlikely that complex interactions or information flows of complex systems would be possible without the other – high, finely tuned energy flows. They are tied together like a Gordian knot. An organism perishes when either energy flows are insufficient (e.g., insufficient food, cyanide poisoning), or information flows are disrupted (e.g., neurodegenerative disorders, proteins denatured by high temperatures), or both (e.g., respiratory or circulatory failure). Nevertheless, aging and death itself is inevitable, not primarily due to failing energy flows, but because of the inexorable march of entropy which causes complex relationships to steadily degrade over time: the skin wrinkles and sags, the hair greys, bones become brittle, and, yes, the heart’s output declines as well, but typically due to various changes in its tissues.

Yet, on the other hand one of the most profound miracles of life is that it can also repeatedly and faithfully renew its information virtually unchanged via reproduction despite entropy, even over billions of years as in the case of bacteria or archaea. A miracle of similar magnitude is that life has also diversified its informational content into literally 100’s of millions of species over time, and with even greater degrees of complexity via evolution. That is, the information of life can both replicate itself accurately, while also occasionally varying its replication such that it has also increased its depth and breadth over time. In the final analysis, it would seem that life especially exemplifies that energy flow is the hand maiden of informational flow. If still in doubt, consider viruses – packets of information that hijack a “true” life form’s metabolism to reproduce itself. Note that there is no known equivalent entity constituted primarily of an energy structure like a mitochondrion that hijacks a true life form’s informational contents to reproduce.
https://jbh.journals.villanova.edu/arti ... /2254/2099

The author uses the word ‘miracle’. I see it as God’s hand made manifest through the miraculous thing we call life. The astronomically small chance of information leading to consciousness and arising out of the Big Bang (all dependent on minute degrees of relationship and cooperation) directly point to Occam’s Razor in my opinion.

Chance vs. God.

It’s a much safer, and at least in my mind, logical choice to go with the Master of Information Theory. The Great Architect. The Great Law Giver. A Creator God.

And as I’ve said, I’m totally cool with those that don’t see the hand of a creator God in their lives.

I just think they are wrong. Something more happens at death than being consumed by bacteria.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Back to the three books mentioned in the OP. Let it be made clear. Those books are an automatic ‘nothing burger’ to those that have already cast God aside.

[Guest]

Back to my original question...which I don’t know that you fleshed out a satisfactory answer to:

Would you agree that at its fundamental level the universe exists as a result of energy and information exchange within and between systems of organized matter?

I gave my answer and it was no. The universe exists because at its beginning there was a massive expansion of energy from which the basic forces and matter emerged. At its most fundamental level, that's why the universe exists. Your comment isn't right and is slightly nonsensical. Matter "became" and was then organized as a result of, not the cause of, the universe coming into being.

To help us out in going down a path that moves towards answering this question let’s start here:

Stuff MG doesn't understand coupled with intelligent design arguments.

The author uses the word ‘miracle’. I see it as God’s hand made manifest through the miraculous thing we call life. The astronomically small chance of information leading to consciousness and arising out of the Big Bang (all dependent on minute degrees of relationship and cooperation) directly point to Occam’s Razor in my opinion.

Chance vs. God.

It’s a much safer, and at least in my mind, logical choice to go with the Master of Information Theory. The Great Architect. The Great Law Giver. A Creator God.

And as I’ve said, I’m totally cool with those that don’t see the hand of a creator God in their lives.

I just think they are wrong. Something more happens at death than being consumed by bacteria.

Regards,
MG

Ok. It makes no difference really. And, as noted before, it's probably nice for bacteria that you think you're special. Makes you more compliant and easier to digest later on.

That said, you aren't getting the two problems information theory causes you I had pointed out. Those being, you are fundamentally reduced to information gates including your soul/intelligence which means you believe in a materialistic universe. And second, information theory precludes an architect. Structure - the computations of the universe - are emergent like a self-learning program. You insist there is a great programmer but ignore the program while doing so. You are, effectively, arguing for a mechanistic universe as well. Watchmaker, architect, programmer...the underlying argument I'd that someone set the system up and put it in motion. You're not thinking about this in any way that get past attempts to match concepts up with the weird ideas of an uneducated wife stealer with a talent for scamming people. You start with Mormonism and the idea of God unique to it and then push ideas through this filter to see what comes out the other side. This damages the idea and gives it an imprint of Mormonism which renders the result useless for any other purpose than to make you feel like you invented a cell phone that drives a car.

[_mentalgymnast]

The universe exists because at its beginning there was a massive expansion of energy from which the basic forces and matter emerged. At its most fundamental level, that's why the universe exists.

Well then, I guess that about wraps it up.

Regards,
MG