Church Surveillance

[_silentkid]

more-than-necessary flip remark

Ugh.

[_rcrocket]

More evidence that you are a brainless idiot. Did you shake up my statements in your hat and then string them together in the random order they fell out? Where exactly did I make the claims you are attributing to me here? I will provide you citations when you learn how to interpret what you read at all accurately. Are you sure you aren't a 9 year old kid? Rarely have I seen such poor reading skills in a person who tries to represent himself as a mature, educated, and successful adult. Go take some remedial reading courses, then come back and talk to me.

Well, I don't purport to be perfect. Forgive me for calling you weak. I'll just be prepared for hyperbolic backlash when I ask you for references to support your claims. I'm sorry I didn't simply assume that I should just go look up references to your assertions myself.

As far as the "BYU Spy Ring" is concerned, again Mr. Scratch and Rollo, that phrase when used has always applied strictly to the 1960s episode. Not to any other. Scratch just confused terms, a lack of understanding of modern BYU history. And, Prince's book does say that it was student-instigated although also makes it clear that Ernest signed onto the deal. Like I say, I disagree with him. My own grandfather was the one who the Board of Trustees was asked to right this wrong.

Whether other "spying" went on at other times, I have never said or implied that there was not a homosexual purge and surveillance in the 1970s; indeed, I think, my prior posts above said that there were.

As far as Mr. Scratch declaring victory and that I will go home and lick my wounds, well, as I have said in the past there is a remarkable penchant among the more pompous on this board (Scratch and Beastie) to "declare" victory. I don't need to get drawn into that nonsense.

[_Mister Scratch]

As far as the "BYU Spy Ring" is concerned, again Mr. Scratch and Rollo, that phrase when used has always applied strictly to the 1960s episode. Not to any other.

According to whom? You?

Scratch just confused terms, a lack of understanding of modern BYU history. And, Prince's book does say that it was student-instigated although also makes it clear that Ernest signed onto the deal.

That doesn't seem to square with Rollo's reading of the text. Again, Bob---would you please be so kind as to cite the page number and text in which Prince states that the spy ring was "student-instigated"?

[_Trevor]

Well, I don't purport to be perfect. Forgive me for calling you weak. I'll just be prepared for hyperbolic backlash when I ask you for references to support your claims. I'm sorry I didn't simply assume that I should just go look up references to your assertions myself.

If you had half a brain, you would recognize that what I object to is your mischaracterizing my claims out of dishonesty or ineptness. I think I was being rather charitable in assuming you are simply stupid, not fundamentally dishonest. I'll try to take it easy on you in the future since it is increasingly clear that you are lacking requisite skills. I would hate to think that you are simply a slimy character, in which case I will respond with the appropriate vitriol.

[_rcrocket]

As far as the "BYU Spy Ring" is concerned, again Mr. Scratch and Rollo, that phrase when used has always applied strictly to the 1960s episode. Not to any other.

According to whom? You?

No. According to history writers -- Prince in particular; Wilkinson as well.

It is like arguing that the immaculate conception applies to the birth of Jesus, and having you repeatedly challenge me when I say the term applies to the birth of Mary. Nomenclature is important, and you just used it incorrectly. Once again, it demonstrates my essential thesis that you are thinly read. You heard the term somewhere, thought it was great, and used it incorrectly.

I know you never give an inch, but I'd be interested to know if those on this board familiar with BYU history thinks that the term "BYU Spy Ring" applies to the homosexual purges of the late 1970s? Anybody want to ring in and support Mr. Scratch -- maybe with a source?

Hmm. How does Quinn use the term "BYU Spy Ring."

[_rcrocket]

Well, I don't purport to be perfect. Forgive me for calling you weak. I'll just be prepared for hyperbolic backlash when I ask you for references to support your claims. I'm sorry I didn't simply assume that I should just go look up references to your assertions myself.

If you had half a brain, you would recognize that what I object to is your mischaracterizing my claims out of dishonesty or ineptness. I think I was being rather charitable in assuming you are simply stupid, not fundamentally dishonest. I'll try to take it easy on you in the future since it is increasingly clear that you are lacking requisite skills. I would hate to think that you are simply a slimy character, in which case I will respond with the appropriate vitriol.

You might, however, look up at my original post and respond to my call for references to support your contention. I know you understand what that means, and I know you read academic literature. You are certain more erudite than I am; why not humor me and those who lurk?

This quote of yours above particularly intrigued me:

3) There is enough evidence to suggest that some folks, whether acting officially or unofficially, have taken it upon themselves to harass critics of the LDS Church. We know of occurrences on the net.

I know about unofficial harassment. That goes on at MAD, a Board I barely tolerate. But, I am interested in your evidence of "official" harassment.

Does that really occur? When and where and how? That would be cool to know.

[_Mister Scratch]

As far as the "BYU Spy Ring" is concerned, again Mr. Scratch and Rollo, that phrase when used has always applied strictly to the 1960s episode. Not to any other.

According to whom? You?

No. According to history writers -- Prince in particular; Wilkinson as well.

It is like arguing that the immaculate conception applies to the birth of Jesus, and having you repeatedly challenge me when I say the term applies to the birth of Mary. Nomenclature is important, and you just used it incorrectly. Once again, it demonstrates my essential thesis that you are thinly read. You heard the term somewhere, thought it was great, and used it incorrectly.

I know you never give an inch, but I'd be interested to know if those on this board familiar with BYU history thinks that the term "BYU Spy Ring" applies to the homosexual purges of the late 1970s? Anybody want to ring in and support Mr. Scratch -- maybe with a source?

Hmm. How does Quinn use the term "BYU Spy Ring."

On pg. 93 of the 2nd Hierarchy book, Quinn mentions "the 1966 spy ring." Later, on pg. 110, he makes note of spying in 1977: "After being informed of this 'spy ring' by Peterson, Dallin Oaks angrily [..., etc.]." (I think the fact that Quinn places the term in scare quotes rather undermines your argument, Bob.) Further, on pg. 307, Quinn makes note of the fact that Elder Mark E. Peterson's "surveillance assignments" were enlarged to include "LDS homosexuals." Finally, on pg. 309 he quotes a BYU security chief, stating in 1968 that "undercover agents" were being used to stalk gays.

Sorry, Bob, but you lose on this one. Surveillance of LDS homosexuals goes well beyond this narrow "late '70s" timeframe you seem desparate to apply.

Oh, and by the way: When are you going to post text and page number of the Prince text? I'm really curious to see substantiation of your claim that the "spy ring" was "student-instigated." The fact that you keep dodging my requests is beginning to seem awfully suspicious.

[_rcrocket]

As far as the "BYU Spy Ring" is concerned, again Mr. Scratch and Rollo, that phrase when used has always applied strictly to the 1960s episode. Not to any other.

According to whom? You?

No. According to history writers -- Prince in particular; Wilkinson as well.

It is like arguing that the immaculate conception applies to the birth of Jesus, and having you repeatedly challenge me when I say the term applies to the birth of Mary. Nomenclature is important, and you just used it incorrectly. Once again, it demonstrates my essential thesis that you are thinly read. You heard the term somewhere, thought it was great, and used it incorrectly.

I know you never give an inch, but I'd be interested to know if those on this board familiar with BYU history thinks that the term "BYU Spy Ring" applies to the homosexual purges of the late 1970s? Anybody want to ring in and support Mr. Scratch -- maybe with a source?

Hmm. How does Quinn use the term "BYU Spy Ring."

On pg. 93 of the 2nd Hierarchy book, Quinn mentions "the 1966 spy ring." Later, on pg. 110, he makes note of spying in 1977: "After being informed of this 'spy ring' by Peterson, Dallin Oaks angrily [..., etc.]." (I think the fact that Quinn places the term in scare quotes rather undermines your argument, Bob.) Further, on pg. 307, Quinn makes note of the fact that Elder Mark E. Peterson's "surveillance assignments" were enlarged to include "LDS homosexuals." Finally, on pg. 309 he quotes a BYU security chief, stating in 1968 that "undercover agents" were being used to stalk gays.

Sorry, Bob, but you lose on this one. Surveillance of LDS homosexuals goes well beyond this narrow "late '70s" timeframe you seem desparate to apply.

Oh, and by the way: When are you going to post text and page number of the Prince text? I'm really curious to see substantiation of your claim that the "spy ring" was "student-instigated." The fact that you keep dodging my requests is beginning to seem awfully suspicious.

Well, you finally come up with a cite. Strange, I have never ever heard of "spy ring" in the context of anything other than the 60s.

And, I am not "desparate" to come to any conclusion about surveillance about any particular year. The only time I personally heard of it was when I was there; any other time I have no knowledge. Or interest I might add.

[_John Larsen]

Whoa, there, didn't silentkid get the ball rolling with his clever "AOAP" jab? Now we're starting into the "you started it game."

Actually, my initial negative comment was in response to your rude, "What's it to you?" comment. I felt that it was unwarranted and responded in kind. Also, please don't use my in real life name unless I can use yours. Thanks.

Mine isn't hard to find, my friend. Around here, though, your name is liable to get you spied on. Threads start appearing with names and addresses, private information and the like. It's almost like the board has some group of spies who are sent to gather such information.

And you are right, I did start the whole escapade with a more-than-necessary flip remark! Apologies.

Hey LOAP, speaking of names, is your continual misspelling of my name due to incompetence or malevolence?

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Whoa, there, didn't silentkid get the ball rolling with his clever "AOAP" jab? Now we're starting into the "you started it game."

Actually, my initial negative comment was in response to your rude, "What's it to you?" comment. I felt that it was unwarranted and responded in kind. Also, please don't use my in real life name unless I can use yours. Thanks.

Mine isn't hard to find, my friend. Around here, though, your name is liable to get you spied on. Threads start appearing with names and addresses, private information and the like. It's almost like the board has some group of spies who are sent to gather such information.

And you are right, I did start the whole escapade with a more-than-necessary flip remark! Apologies.

Hey LOAP, speaking of names, is your continual misspelling of my name due to incompetence or malevolence?

Probably the former. I wasn't aware I was misspelling it. Was I saying Larson instead of Larsen?