LDS Apologetics Operating Costs Are More Than $7,000,000

[_Yoda]

That makes sense, Jason. BYU probably "loaned" Dr. Peterson to the committee during that time frame. Since there are only so many hours in a day, DCP's time spent was just compensated by his normal salary even though he was devoting a little less time to the school.

This type of thing is very commonplace.

Sure. Reasonable people can see this,

Other want to make a huge issue out of nothing. I wonder really what their intent is. It seems rather evil and malicious to me. I believe Dr Peterson is an honest man. I do not see him out to smear anyone's character unlike others here. I know a bit about business as well as tax forms. I understand that presentation is and can be somewhat of an art and numbers can be presented in various ways with no fraud or misrepresentation intended.

And it certainly is something that DCP may not be aware of as far as how that representation happens. He was just receiving his normal paycheck.

I would love to see Who Knows weigh in on this. He is a CPA.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Perhaps the accountant who prepared the return classified amounts paid to BYU for Dan's time as payments to the Chairman. There are all sorts of ways to classify expenses and income when reporting to IRS and that are quite fine. I take Dan's word on it. My guess is it was paid to other organizations for his time.

The 1998 Form 990 (where DCP is reported to have received $20,400) lists "compensation of officers, directors, etc." separate and apart from "program services," which reflects a whopping $1,549,107 spent, including the following on other organizations/projects:

1. Research and Allocations to Scholars and Students: $508,021
2. Publication and Distribution of a Regular Newsletter to Foundation Participants: $475,669
3. Translation of Ancient Islamic Texts: $6,584
4. Operation of the Center for Electronic Preservation of Ancient Religious Texts: $558,833

So it appears the accountant did not include compensation to directors and officers in the money spent by FARMS on other matters.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Other want to make a huge issue out of nothing. I wonder really what their intent is.

I don't think we are making a "huge issue" about it. We are simply reporting public information about FARMS finances. I know Dan says those public filings are wrong (at least as they relate to his compensation), and perhaps they are, but they do say what they say. Those who make this a "huge issue" are those who refuse to concede the obvious, in my opinion.

It seems rather evil and malicious to me.

Not at all. We are simply providing additional data to the conversation, based on public filings by the organization in question. How is this either evil or malicious?

I believe Dr Peterson is an honest man.

I do, too. I just think he's mistaken on this issue.

I do not see him out to smear anyone's character unlike others here.

Pray tell, how could public tax filings, signed under oath by his own organization, "smear" him or anyone else?

[_Trevor]

Maybe I am way off here, but I thought the original point of all of this, which seemed to be a reasonable one, is that it was apparently hypocritical for LDS apologists to have portrayed themselves as underdogs financially and their adversaries as greedy, evil people, when the LDS apologists have, at least in recent years, had a decent operating budget, and it is at least probable that many of the people who participate in contra-Mormon ministries are actually motivated by their conviction that Mormonism is a heresy.

[_Mister Scratch]

Perhaps the accountant who prepared the return classified amounts paid to BYU for Dan's time as payments to the Chairman. There are all sorts of ways to classify expenses and income when reporting to IRS and that are quite fine. I take Dan's word on it. My guess is it was paid to other organizations for his time.

The 1998 Form 990 (where DCP is reported to have received $20,400) lists "compensation of officers, directors, etc." separate and apart from "program services," which reflects a whopping $1,549,107 spent, including the following on other organizations/projects:

1. Research and Allocations to Scholars and Students: $508,021
2. Publication and Distribution of a Regular Newsletter to Foundation Participants: $475,669
3. Translation of Ancient Islamic Texts: $6,584
4. Operation of the Center for Electronic Preservation of Ancient Religious Texts: $558,833

So it appears the accountant did not include compensation to directors and officers in the money spent by FARMS on other matters.

You know, I was curious about that as well, Rollo. Why on earth would it take almost half a million dollars to distribute a newsletter? That seems pretty fishy to me.

As for Jason Bourne: I find it deeply hypocritical that *he* is now engaging in speculation and spin. DCP has stated that he "can't recall" exactly what was going on at that time, and the forms themselves specifically state that he was paid for being a Board Chair. To assume that he was having his time "bought out", or whatever, with zero documentary evidence, is pure speculation. The best assumption to make, based on the evidence at hand, is that DCP was paid $20,000 for apologetics after FARMS had an especially good year on the stock market.

[_The Nehor]

Where's the assault rifle when you need it?

Edit: Scratch, I never got to thank you for the expansion you did on my dossier. It is now hilarious. Well done.

[_Jason Bourne]

Perhaps the accountant who prepared the return classified amounts paid to BYU for Dan's time as payments to the Chairman. There are all sorts of ways to classify expenses and income when reporting to IRS and that are quite fine. I take Dan's word on it. My guess is it was paid to other organizations for his time.

The 1998 Form 990 (where DCP is reported to have received $20,400) lists "compensation of officers, directors, etc." separate and apart from "program services," which reflects a whopping $1,549,107 spent, including the following on other organizations/projects:

1. Research and Allocations to Scholars and Students: $508,021
2. Publication and Distribution of a Regular Newsletter to Foundation Participants: $475,669
3. Translation of Ancient Islamic Texts: $6,584
4. Operation of the Center for Electronic Preservation of Ancient Religious Texts: $558,833

So it appears the accountant did not include compensation to directors and officers in the money spent by FARMS on other matters.

Uh really Big Deal. Nothing you said discounts the position I notes above. Oh and Rollo, you typically are fairly level. Why the hyperbolic whopping? Are you a business man? 1.5 Million for the items you mention is really not that much. This would put FARMS in the class of a rather small business.

Curious though. Since you have the 990, what are the contributions to FARMS for the years in question.

[_Jason Bourne]

Other want to make a huge issue out of nothing. I wonder really what their intent is.

I don't think we are making a "huge issue" about it. We are simply reporting public information about FARMS finances. I know Dan says those public filings are wrong (at least as they relate to his compensation), and perhaps they are, but they do say what they say. Those who make this a "huge issue" are those who refuse to concede the obvious, in my opinion.

It seems rather evil and malicious to me.

Not at all. We are simply providing additional data to the conversation, based on public filings by the organization in question. How is this either evil or malicious?

I believe Dr Peterson is an honest man.

I do, too. I just think he's mistaken on this issue.

I do not see him out to smear anyone's character unlike others here.

Pray tell, how could public tax filings, signed under oath by his own organization, "smear" him or anyone else?

It is all in the presentation Rollo. Come on. What is the intent here. DCP has explained himself. You frankly are calling him a liar.

Look FARMS is and NFP. But people who do work and services for an NFP get paid. Sometimes they get paid a lot. NFP does not mean it cannot be run like a business and pay people for services. You all are having a hey day-"Apologetics seems pretty lucrative." Hardly. And keep in mind that FARMS does A LOT more than apologetics. That seems very clear from the expenses you listed above.

by the way, Tax returns are no signed under oath.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Perhaps the accountant who prepared the return classified amounts paid to BYU for Dan's time as payments to the Chairman. There are all sorts of ways to classify expenses and income when reporting to IRS and that are quite fine. I take Dan's word on it. My guess is it was paid to other organizations for his time.

The 1998 Form 990 (where DCP is reported to have received $20,400) lists "compensation of officers, directors, etc." separate and apart from "program services," which reflects a whopping $1,549,107 spent, including the following on other organizations/projects:

1. Research and Allocations to Scholars and Students: $508,021
2. Publication and Distribution of a Regular Newsletter to Foundation Participants: $475,669
3. Translation of Ancient Islamic Texts: $6,584
4. Operation of the Center for Electronic Preservation of Ancient Religious Texts: $558,833

So it appears the accountant did not include compensation to directors and officers in the money spent by FARMS on other matters.

Uh really Big Deal. Nothing you said discounts the position I notes above. Oh and Rollo, you typically are fairly level. Why the hyperbolic whopping? Are you a business man? 1.5 Million for the items you mention is really not that much. This would put FARMS in the class of a rather small business.

It seemed like a lot to me; I didn't think that FARMS had that kind of money (at least not before joining BYU).

Curious though. Since you have the 990, what are the contributions to FARMS for the years in question.

For the year 1998, total revenues were $2,232,936 (made up mostly of $1.1 million in contributions, $176K in membership dues, and $500K in capital gains from investments).

For 1997: slightly over $1 million in total revenue (made up mostly of $979K in contributions)
For 1999 (just 6 months worth): total negative revenue of ($1,147,385), which appears to relate to sales of publicly traded securities (for a loss of ($2,280,579)). Contributions during the 6 months were $755K.

[_Jason Bourne]

You know, I was curious about that as well, Rollo. Why on earth would it take almost half a million dollars to distribute a newsletter? That seems pretty fishy to me.

Postage cost lots. This is really not a large amount.

As for Jason Bourne: I find it deeply hypocritical that *he* is now engaging in speculation and spin.

Well we all know I am damned hypocrite.

DCP has stated that he "can't recall" exactly what was going on at that time, and the forms themselves specifically state that he was paid for being a Board Chair. To assume that he was having his time "bought out", or whatever, with zero documentary evidence, is pure speculation.

Yep. You have taught me well.

The best assumption to make, based on the evidence at hand, is that DCP was paid $20,000 for apologetics after FARMS had an especially good year on the stock market.

So you are calling DCP a liar now. Right?