The Constitutional Crisis Thread

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_Res Ipsa
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
No. Revoked, period. As in, "you don't have a Visa anymore." I don't have time right now to run this down, but I will do it when I can.


Find out if they can apply for waivers. Just off the top of my head, this affects students, docs doing internships over here, university professors, scientists, members of the business community.


Here is the complete order: http://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000159- ... ff671a0001

And here is 3(g) of the order:

(g) Notwithstanding a suspension pursuant to subsection (c) of this section or pursuant to a Presidential proclamation described in subsection (e) of this section, the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security may, on a case-by-case basis, and when in the national interest, issue visas or other immigration benefits to nationals of countries for which visas and benefits are otherwise blocked.


So, is it in the national interest that Tareq, an undergrad at San Diego State, be exempted from the revocation?
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Mayan Elephant
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Mayan Elephant »

So help me understand.

Homeland can offer an exemption to allow a visa activation and travel. Correct?

How do we get from that to deportation or revocation to default illegal status?
"Rocks don't speak for themselves" is an unfortunate phrase to use in defense of a book produced by a rock actually 'speaking' for itself... (I have a Question, 5.15.15)
_Res Ipsa
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Mayan Elephant wrote:So help me understand.

Homeland can offer an exemption to allow a visa activation and travel. Correct?

How do we get from that to deportation or revocation to default illegal status?


If you're talking to me, where did I mention "deportation" or "default illegal status"

I've simply posted what the order said. If you are a student from one of the seven countries here on a visa, you no longer have a visa. You can apply for an exemption, but you can be exempt only of it is determined that giving you an exemption is in the national interest. Same if you are here on a spousal visa. Or a work visa.

Not only are citizens of the seven countries prevented from entry for 90 days, they also no longer have visas at all. They either have to apply for new visas or apply for one of these exemptions. I haven't tried to find out if there is even a process in place to apply for one of these exemptions.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Jersey Girl
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Jersey Girl »

I think these are the exemptions:

A-1 - 2 - Foreign government diplomats and officials and their immediate family members
G-1 - 4 - International organization officials and employees and their immediate family members
NATO-1 - 6 - NATO officials and employees and their immediate family members

I'm not sure what C2 is. I think it's a diplomat visa. Also included in the exemptions.

Res Ipsa wrote:So, is it in the national interest that Tareq, an undergrad at San Diego State, be exempted from the revocation?

Right now, it doesn't look like it matters. According to the list of exemptions, Tareq can go pound salt for spring semester at least.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Res Ipsa
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:So, is it in the national interest that Tareq, an undergrad at San Diego State, be exempted from the revocation?

Right now, it doesn't look like it matters. According to the list of exemptions, Tareq can go pound salt for spring semester at least.

Those are the exemptions listed. There is also a catch-all provision that allows an exemption on a case by case basis if it is deemed "in the national interest."

In answer to your question about the executive order, here is the president's statutory authority to bar entry of aliens:

(f) Suspension of entry or imposition of restrictions by President
Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate. Whenever the Attorney General finds that a commercial airline has failed to comply with regulations of the Attorney General relating to requirements of airlines for the detection of fraudulent documents used by passengers traveling to the United States (including the training of personnel in such detection), the Attorney General may suspend the entry of some or all aliens transported to the United States by such airline.

8 U.S.C. §1182(f)

So, yes, he can extend the executive order forever if he deems it necessary.

And here is the statutory authority for the Visa revocation:

(i) After the issuance of a visa or other documentation to any alien, the consular officer or the Secretary of State may at any time, in his discretion, revoke such visa or other documentation. Notice of such revocation shall be communicated to the Attorney General, and such revocation shall invalidate the visa or other documentation from the date of issuance: Provided, That carriers or transportation companies, and masters, commanding officers, agents, owners, charterers, or consignees, shall not be penalized under section 273(b) for action taken in reliance on such visas or other documentation, unless they received due notice of such revocation prior to the alien's embarkation. 3/ There shall be no means of judicial review (including review pursuant to section 2241 of title 28, United States Code, or any other habeas corpus provision, and sections 1361 and 1651 of such title) of a revocation under this subsection, except in the context of a removal proceeding if such revocation provides the sole ground for removal under section 237(a)(1)(B) .

8 U.S.C. § 1201 (i)

Here is the regulation that governs provisional revocation of visas:

(b) Provisional revocation—(1) General. A provisional revocation is subject to reversal through internal procedures established by the Department of State. Upon reversal of the revocation, the visa immediately resumes the validity provided for on its face. Provisional revocation shall have the same force and effect as any other visa revocation under INA 221(i), unless and until the revocation has been reversed. Neither the provisional revocation of a visa nor the reversal of a provisional revocation limits, in any way, the revocation authority provided for under INA 221(i), with respect to the particular visa or any other visa.

22 CFR 41.122(b)(1)

(b) Provisional revocation. A consular officer, the Secretary, or any Department official to whom the Secretary has delegated this authority may provisionally revoke an immigrant visa while considering information related to whether a visa holder is eligible for the visa. Provisional revocation shall have the same force and effect as any other visa revocation under INA 221(i).

11 CFR 42.82

The first is for non-immigrant visas and the second is for immigrant visas.

So, after perusing the State Department website, it looks like anyone from the seven countries will, at the end of their visa period, have to return to their country of citizenship and apply for a new visa. There is a program that allows folks in the U.S. to extend their Visas while in the U.S., but it requires that they already have a valid visa. Getting a Visa requires a personal interview at the consulate. However, it looks like all such interviews have been canceled and none are being scheduled during the 90 day travel ban.

I couldn't find anything that tells folks how to apply for a reversal of the provisional revocation, but I didn't have a ton of time to spend looking.

A suspicious person would conclude that the intent here is to force all citizens of the seven countries here on visas that do not fit into the narrow list of exemptions to go home.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Jersey Girl
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Res Ipsa
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Jersey Girl wrote:In other news, Iran.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hoc4SPT0yGU

Yeah, and China...

Here's what the State Department has posted for Visitor visas (the kind a tourist would get)

Quote
Urgent Notice
Per the Executive Order on Protecting the Nation from Terrorist Attacks by Foreign Nationals signed on January 27, 2017, visa issuance to nationals of the countries of Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Syria and Yemen has been suspended effective immediately until further notification. If you are a citizen of one of these countries, please do not schedule a visa appointment or pay any visa fees at this time. If you already have an appointment scheduled, please DO NOT ATTEND. You will not be permitted entry to the Embassy/Consulate. We will announce any other changes affecting travelers to the United States as soon as that information is available.

And here's what they've posted for immigrant visas:

Pursuant to the Executive Order on Protecting the Nation from Terrorist Attacks by Foreign Nationals signed on January 27, 2017, the Department of State has temporarily stopped scheduling appointments and halted processing of immigrant visa applications for individuals who are nationals or dual nationals of Syria, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, and Yemen.

The National Visa Center has cancelled all scheduled immigrant visa interviews for these applicants scheduled in February 2017. This includes all visa categories, whether they are family- or employment-based. Applicants for fiancé visas (“K” visas) are included. We apologize for any inconvenience this causes. Once it is appropriate, the National Visa Center or a U.S. Embassy or Consulate abroad will notify you of a new interview date and time.

If you received an interview appointment in February and have not yet attended the required medical exam, please cancel your medical examination appointment. Medical exam results are only valid for six (6) months and we cannot predict when your visa interview will be rescheduled. When the National Visa Center or U.S. Embassy is able to reschedule your interview, they will contact you.

The National Visa Center will continue to work on in-process cases for these applicants up to the point of the interview. You should continue to pay fees, complete your Form DS-260 immigrant visa application, and submit your financial and civil supporting documents to NVC. NVC will review your case file and can qualify your case for an appointment. However, you will not receive a visa interview until further notice.

From what I gather, students are generally allowed to stay through the completion of their course of study. The length of stay is actually a separate determination, so the revocation may not put a student in overstay status. As long as the student continues her studies and doesn't leave the country, it looks like she can finish her studies.

ABC reportedly found 13 suits challenging the immigration order. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/legal-ac ... d=45175192 I suspect there will be more. Can't. Keep. Up.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
_Jersey Girl
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Jersey Girl »

You mean Bannon's prediction about China?

Can I just tell you this? I'm reading this creepy thread with creepy threats going out to Iran with creepy predictions on the part of Bannon. And there are military jets flying overhead of my house like craziness.

This doesn't make for good posting ambience when you're sick and loopy headed to begin with (don't even go there), and could easily be convinced there's a reason for paranoia right this very second.

(And when I tried to post this it said "the requested post does not exist" so yeah, now I'm pretty sure I don't exist either. )
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Res Ipsa
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Res Ipsa »

Jersey Girl wrote:You mean Bannon's prediction about China?

Can I just tell you this? I'm reading this creepy thread with creepy threats going out to Iran with creepy predictions on the part of Bannon. And there are military jets flying overhead of my house like craziness.

This doesn't make for good posting ambience when you're sick and loopy headed to begin with (don't even go there), and could easily be convinced there's a reason for paranoia right this very second.

(And when I tried to post this it said "the requested post does not exist" so yeah, now I'm pretty sure I don't exist either. )

No, I mean the saber rattling war with China we're in right now. https://intpolicydigest.org/2017/01/27/ ... war-china/

I'm pretty sure you exist. Pretty. Sure.
​“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction, true and false, no longer exists.”

― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951
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Re: The Constitutional Crisis Thread

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Nice. I didn't catch that. He was confirmed today.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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