MG & JLHPROF: From Whence Come Spiritual Experiences?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

The "burning in the bosom" is something qualitatively different from anything else I have ever experienced in my life through my natural senses. Granted, the 'streaming thoughts' I'm referring to above could simply be interpreted as being simply 'thoughts'. But I see them differently.

When it comes to the burning feeling in the very core of the body going from head to toe...knowing that it isn't a lightning strike ...that's another thing altogether.

Regards,
MG

There you have it. Mental Gymnast given an opportunity to expand and blow his mind away with super exploratory conversation and instead he defaults to his testimony.

Yep. Totally here to 'learn' and stuff.

- Doc

[Guest]

[_Aero]

Also, in the premortal realm I think it would be reasonable to entertain the thought that we didn't live by faith.

So, you admit that having knowledge does not take away or pre-empt our free will. Maybe you will stop using that argument for the need to live by faith in the future since you admit it isn't valid.

Here on earth it is an obvious fact that we do.

Only obvious to people trying to sell something that they can't provide evidence for.

I think you folks that are expecting God to meet you face-to-face are literally facing an up hill battle to try and arrange that meeting. If I'm hearing you correctly, you are saying that He should/ought to visit with everyone individually so that there can be no mistake as to His revealing Himself correctly...and without error or misrepresentation...so that everyone on the planet can know who He is and what He expects. Do I have that right?

Can the Holy Ghost speak to every single individual on the planet or can't he?

My earlier post succinctly demonstrates why you would be expecting the impossible.

It really doesn't do any such thing at all.

I think God is under the constraint of having to get His word out there into 'the wild' through other means rather than doing a face-to-face with everyone on the planet.

This is just another excuse. God could easily avoid the whole education thing by simply sending us to the earth with our memory intact. It's a very simple solution to the problem of making sure everyone has the knowledge they need to actually make sound and valid decisions.

There are many ways to get this knowledge to the world. He could project his voice so every individual on the planet could hear him. Or maybe he could use the mechanism that you already claim is in place, the Holy Ghost, and have it do something a little stronger than whisper or make our bosoms burn. He already has a planetary communication system in place for each individual. Why not just use it more effectively?

[_mentalgymnast]

Mental Gymnast given an opportunity to expand and blow his mind away with super exploratory conversation...

I suppose I'm a bit more pragmatic. I look at the world, such as it is, and try and determine what might actually work best within the conditions we find ourselves...and others...in.

I won't fault you for going into fantastical realms in regards to how God might speak face-to-face with everyone on the planet and cover all the bases, so to speak.

I'm sure it's kind of fun for you.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

I suppose, Water Dog, that is the point I'm arriving at.

That question was meant for Doc actually... your position is clear to me.

I knew that. I just wanted to say what I said.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Also, in the premortal realm I think it would be reasonable to entertain the thought that we didn't live by faith.

So, you admit that having knowledge does not take away or pre-empt our free will. Maybe you will stop using that argument for the need to live by faith in the future since you admit it isn't valid.

In the pre-mortal realm, that appears to have been the case. I suppose the argument comes down to whether or not it is necessary for us to live by faith while here on earth.

Can the Holy Ghost speak to every single individual on the planet or can't he?

I don't know if 'in the wild', so to speak, that is a reasonable position to take. I think that one needs to understand and be susceptible to the influence of the Holy Ghost. I don't think that His influence can be forced on anyone.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Can the Holy Ghost speak to every single individual on the planet or can't he?

Are you seeing this as a direct equivalence to God speaking "face-to-face" to everyone?

Regards,
MG

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

So. Thus far we have:

Zerinus - I feel super tingly when I think God is speaking to me.

MG - I feel super tingly when I think God is speaking to me.

There you go. That's the super exact science of how God speaks to believers, and, oddly enough, the super tingles seem to be subject to confirmation bias.

Huh.

- Doc

[_mentalgymnast]

Can the Holy Ghost speak to every single individual on the planet or can't he?

My earlier post succinctly demonstrates why you would be expecting the impossible.

It really doesn't do any such thing at all.

I think it does.

Regards,
MG

[_I have a question]

Asking MG to back up his assertions is like trying to grow rocks.

MG, without divulging those experiences, you should be able to articulate the hallmarks that identify that spiritual phenomena was involved rather than simple constructs/fabrications of the mind. You’ve asserted their are differentiating hallmarks, you’ve asserted you can identify them. I simply want to know what they are.

Let me give you a template that will enable you to answer the question without divulging the personal experience:

Experience A involved spiritual phenomena because <the tips of my fingers turned blue> whereas Experience B was a simple construct/fabrication of the mind because <the tips of my fingers didn’t turn blue>.

All you have to do (and you’ve already asserted you can), is replace the words in between < & > with the specific hallmarks that enabled you to differentiate between spiritual phenomena and simple constructs/fabrications of the mind.

If your original assertion is honest (that you personally have learnt to differentiate between spiritual phenomena and simple constructs/fabrications of the mind), this is a simple question which should be easy to respond to with an unambiguous, non-evasive answer.

A good faith bump...

Earlier in the thread I said this:

The closest I can come to describing some of the experiences I'm referring to is a 'burning in the bosom'. Other times have been thoughts streaming...complete sentences and coherent thought... without preexisting encouragement or causal factors. And they've been directly applicable to a situation in which I later could see I was in need of that inspiration.

The "burning in the bosom" is something qualitatively different from anything else I have ever experienced in my life through my natural senses. Granted, the 'streaming thoughts' I'm referring to above could simply be interpreted as being simply 'thoughts'. But I see them differently.

When it comes to the burning feeling in the very core of the body going from head to toe...knowing that it isn't a lightning strike ...that's another thing altogether.

Regards,
MG

However, earlier in the thread you said:

Ruminating after the fact. HIndsight is always better than foresight. There are experiences that I've had during my life in which as I look at them in hindsight it appears to me that there were other factors that may have entered into the equation other than pure chance and/or self induced/originating thought.

So if the determining factor for you differentiating between spiritual phenomena and simple constructs/fabrications of the mind is a qualitatively different ‘burning in the bosom’, how come you only ‘saw’ that ‘burning in the bosom’ in hindsight when you ruminated after the fact on the experience? Would such a qualitatively different burning in the bosom not be blatantly self evident there and then at the time you were experiencing it?

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Separately, why do you think you had a spiritual burning in the bosom (a “burning feeling in the very core of the body going from head to toe”) when Dallin H Oaks hasn’t?

What does a “burning in the bosom” mean? Does it need to be a feeling of caloric heat, like the burning produced by combustion? If that is the meaning, I have never had a burning in the bosom. Surely, the word “burning” in this scripture signifies a feeling of comfort and serenity. That is the witness many receive. That is the way revelation works.

https://www.LDS.org/ensign/1997/03/teac ... t?lang=eng