Call me shameful then especially when they say they don't believe it themselves.
Are you saying you never heard the counsel given by LDS leaders that if you do not have a testimony, bear it anyway and the HG will give it to you? You never heard the whole, "trial by faith" idea? You know, the one that says, you gain a testimony AFTER the trial if you do what is right? You never heard the teaching that if you sacrifice and obey, you will be blessed? You never heard the teaching that if you do not have a testimony, lean on those of the leaders and others who "know" until yours is strong? You never heard the teaching to trust and have faith that you will be blessed as you obey?
Come now Nehor....
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
TD wrote:Are you saying you never heard the counsel given by LDS leaders that if you do not have a testimony, bear it anyway and the HG will give it to you? You never heard the whole, "trial by faith" idea? You know, the one that says, you gain a testimony AFTER the trial if you do what is right? You never heard the teaching that if you sacrifice and obey, you will be blessed? You never heard the teaching that if you do not have a testimony, lean on those of the leaders and others who "know" until yours is strong? You never heard the teaching to trust and have faith that you will be blessed as you obey?
Call me shameful then especially when they say they don't believe it themselves.
Are you saying you never heard the counsel given by LDS leaders that if you do not have a testimony, bear it anyway and the HG will give it to you? You never heard the whole, "trial by faith" idea? You know, the one that says, you gain a testimony AFTER the trial if you do what is right? You never heard the teaching that if you sacrifice and obey, you will be blessed? You never heard the teaching that if you do not have a testimony, lean on those of the leaders and others who "know" until yours is strong? You never heard the teaching to trust and have faith that you will be blessed as you obey?
Come now Nehor....
~dancer~
I have heard that and I believe it. I do however think it is ridiculous to wait till you are on your Mission to try it. You've had YEARS to use it. Fast & Testimony meeting, Seminary, talking with friends. I'm hoping that the raising the bar program will weed out all the faithless missionaries who sort of wandered into a Mission.
I also remember a teaching regarding divine confirmation of your callings. I check on that when I'm called to teach a once a week class. There is no way I would dedicate two years of my life without checking. Do people not understand what they're getting into? Do they not talk to Returned missionaries who can tell them how hard it is?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
I also remember a teaching regarding divine confirmation of your callings. I check on that when I'm called to teach a once a week class. There is no way I would dedicate two years of my life without checking. Do people not understand what they're getting into? Do they not talk to Returned missionaries who can tell them how hard it is?
Maybe others had more faith than you. Maybe they trusted their leaders more than you. Maybe God doesn't talk to them quite so clearly as "he" does you. Maybe their priesthood leaders told them that it is Jesus Christ himself that is calling them to serve, (as did my husband's bishop). Maybe they didn't want to give up as easily as you would have. Maybe they hung onto hope against all odds. Maybe they loved their parents so much they didn't want to disappoint them and cause them heartache.
Seriously Nehor...
Can you not even minimally understand this dynamic?
~dancer~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
I also remember a teaching regarding divine confirmation of your callings. I check on that when I'm called to teach a once a week class. There is no way I would dedicate two years of my life without checking. Do people not understand what they're getting into? Do they not talk to Returned missionaries who can tell them how hard it is?
Maybe others had more faith than you. Maybe they trusted their leaders more than you. Maybe God doesn't talk to them quite so clearly as "he" does you. Maybe their priesthood leaders told them that it is Jesus Christ himself that is calling them to serve, (as did my husband's bishop). Maybe they didn't want to give up as easily as you would have. Maybe they hung onto hope against all odds. Maybe they loved their parents so much they didn't want to disappoint them and cause them heartache.
Seriously Nehor...
Can you not even minimally understand this dynamic?
~dancer~
Not really, no. If the guy I'm thinking of on my Mission had more trust, faith, and love than me then I quit.
So basically you're saying that those who suck at being missionaries and go due to social pressure are as good as those who go because they want to serve God? Not buying it at all.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Because no one is forced to go on a Mission. I hate this kind of abdication of personal responsibility for people's choices. There may have been people urging him to go. Unless he was abducted he chose to go. At 19 virtually everyone is capable of defying their parents. They've probably been doing it for years.
It is much more complicated than this.
This topic reminds me of a young woman with whom I worked who was "forced" into an arranged marriage. Did anyone hold a gun to her head? Nope. Did anything threaten to kill her? Nope?
But, if she didn't go along with the marriage she would be shunned for life, never again see her parents or siblings, be cast out of her community, and her family would be shamed forever. The consequence for not marrying were too severe for her to even comtemplate.
Similarly, some young men feel such pressure to go on a mission, and feel such horror at the consequences for NOT going, that the only option they can see is to go. It is not about disobeying their parents, it is about displeasing God, trying to have trust in leaders, trying to have faith that their testimonies will indeed grow. It is about doing what they have been taught all their life is their duty and obligation. It is about holding hope that the blessings they are promised will indeed materialize. It is about not disappointing families, friends, leaders, and community. It is about holding onto hope that God is really there.
It is shameful to suggest that these boys who give two years of their lives, as they try to manage their situation the best they can, hoping somehow life will turn out well after the struggle, who put their faith in those who claim to speak to God, are somehow chicken, or stupid, or weak, or unable to stand up to their parents.
I'm not about blame or guilt or holding onto the past, but to suggest the church/doctrine/teachings/culture did not play a huge part in these young men going on missions is to be either naïve or disengenuous.
~dancer~
td,
I just want to point out one thing here. In her first comments to the OP, charity described Mercury's account as "chicken behavior". In doing so, she unintentionally admitted that there was fear involved. What was Mercury afraid of? He clearly stated his fears in response to Nehor:
You were pushed on a mission just as I was, I am sure. Go or be ostracized, a hearty "F**k off" to anyone who says that boys aren't pressured to serve.
I agree that his behavior was "chicken behavior" in the sense that his choices were fear based. Absolutely yes. charity's choice of words is telling.
I also remember a teaching regarding divine confirmation of your callings. I check on that when I'm called to teach a once a week class. There is no way I would dedicate two years of my life without checking. Do people not understand what they're getting into? Do they not talk to Returned missionaries who can tell them how hard it is?
Maybe others had more faith than you. Maybe they trusted their leaders more than you. Maybe God doesn't talk to them quite so clearly as "he" does you. Maybe their priesthood leaders told them that it is Jesus Christ himself that is calling them to serve, (as did my husband's bishop). Maybe they didn't want to give up as easily as you would have. Maybe they hung onto hope against all odds. Maybe they loved their parents so much they didn't want to disappoint them and cause them heartache.
Seriously Nehor...
Can you not even minimally understand this dynamic?
~dancer~
Not really, no. If the guy I'm thinking of on my Mission had more trust, faith, and love than me then I quit.
So basically you're saying that those who suck at being missionaries and go due to social pressure are as good as those who go because they want to serve God? Not buying it at all.
I wonder what Jesus would say to doubting Thomas about that? (YES! I JUST NOW REALIZED THAT WAS FROM THE Bible!! WEEE!) Those that go without a testimony and the assurance of what you had Nehor went for reasons that TD listed above. You had all the assurance.. and they didn't. But they went anyway. Maybe they wanted to believe? Perhaps, they desired that same sort of confirmation that you had (no doubt they DID!) but they went ANYWAY!
Because no one is forced to go on a Mission. I hate this kind of abdication of personal responsibility for people's choices. There may have been people urging him to go. Unless he was abducted he chose to go. At 19 virtually everyone is capable of defying their parents. They've probably been doing it for years.
It is much more complicated than this.
This topic reminds me of a young woman with whom I worked who was "forced" into an arranged marriage. Did anyone hold a gun to her head? Nope. Did anything threaten to kill her? Nope?
But, if she didn't go along with the marriage she would be shunned for life, never again see her parents or siblings, be cast out of her community, and her family would be shamed forever. The consequence for not marrying were too severe for her to even comtemplate.
Similarly, some young men feel such pressure to go on a mission, and feel such horror at the consequences for NOT going, that the only option they can see is to go. It is not about disobeying their parents, it is about displeasing God, trying to have trust in leaders, trying to have faith that their testimonies will indeed grow. It is about doing what they have been taught all their life is their duty and obligation. It is about holding hope that the blessings they are promised will indeed materialize. It is about not disappointing families, friends, leaders, and community. It is about holding onto hope that God is really there.
It is shameful to suggest that these boys who give two years of their lives, as they try to manage their situation the best they can, hoping somehow life will turn out well after the struggle, who put their faith in those who claim to speak to God, are somehow chicken, or stupid, or weak, or unable to stand up to their parents.
I'm not about blame or guilt or holding onto the past, but to suggest the church/doctrine/teachings/culture did not play a huge part in these young men going on missions is to be either naïve or disengenuous.
~dancer~
td,
I just want to point out one thing here. In her first comments to the OP, charity described Mercury's account as "chicken behavior". In doing so, she unintentionally admitted that there was fear involved. What was Mercury afraid of? He clearly stated his fears in response to Nehor:
You were pushed on a mission just as I was, I am sure. Go or be ostracized, a hearty "F**k off" to anyone who says that boys aren't pressured to serve.
I agree that his behavior was "chicken behavior" in the sense that his choices were fear based. Absolutely yes. charity's choice of words is telling.
Channelling Nehor: "Yeah, I was pushed into it. I remember praying and asking if I should go and I was COMMANDED to go. So yes, I caved into divine pressure. I admit it."
In truth, the git Nehor slavishly prostrated himself before the Enemy like the disgusting whore that he is and did what he was told. There is something dynamic about what Merc did. He followed God enough to get himself into a position and not follow through. Then he serves as a vice and a detriment to all the other whorish people following the Enemy. It's almost a shame that Mercury left. As a double agent he might have wreaked glorious havoc. Luckily we still have others to do that work.
I also remember a teaching regarding divine confirmation of your callings. I check on that when I'm called to teach a once a week class. There is no way I would dedicate two years of my life without checking. Do people not understand what they're getting into? Do they not talk to Returned missionaries who can tell them how hard it is?
Maybe others had more faith than you. Maybe they trusted their leaders more than you. Maybe God doesn't talk to them quite so clearly as "he" does you. Maybe their priesthood leaders told them that it is Jesus Christ himself that is calling them to serve, (as did my husband's bishop). Maybe they didn't want to give up as easily as you would have. Maybe they hung onto hope against all odds. Maybe they loved their parents so much they didn't want to disappoint them and cause them heartache.
Seriously Nehor...
Can you not even minimally understand this dynamic?
~dancer~
Not really, no. If the guy I'm thinking of on my Mission had more trust, faith, and love than me then I quit.
So basically you're saying that those who suck at being missionaries and go due to social pressure are as good as those who go because they want to serve God? Not buying it at all.
I wonder what Jesus would say to doubting Thomas about that? (YES! I JUST NOW REALIZED THAT WAS FROM THE Bible!! WEEE!) Those that go without a testimony and the assurance of what you had Nehor went for reasons that TD listed above. You had all the assurance.. and they didn't. But they went anyway. Maybe they wanted to believe? Perhaps, they desired that same sort of confirmation that you had (no doubt they DID!) but they went ANYWAY!
Doubting Thomas didn't believe. Would he have gone on a Mission teaching about the Risen Lord despite not believing the Lord had risen? On that point the Scriptures are silent. The analogy doesn't fit.
As his personal tempter I can verify that he would not have.
Last edited by _Belial on Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I get so tired of people saying they were "foreced" to go on a mission, "forced" to marry in the temple.
Okay, if mercury signs a affidavit that he never did anything rebellious in his previous 19 years, alwys did exactly as his parents told him to, I might reconsider.
The give away in his post was the "I would have been better off smoking pot for 2 years" comment.
Oh, yes, and the way he slips into the good old boy condescending to women mode. Men who are condescending to women are showing their weakness. They can't beat up on their peers (in physical strength) so they take it out on women.
Hi Charity,
The Following is from a Speech that the Former 13th LDS Church President Ezra Taft Benson gave in Priesthood Session, back in April of 1988:
Understand that temple marriage is essential to your salvation and exaltation.
...
My dear single adult brethren, we are also concerned. We want you to know that the position of the Church has never changed regarding the importance of celestial marriage. It is a commandment of God. The Lord’s declaration in Genesis is still true: “And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone” (Gen. 2:18).
To obtain a fulness of glory and exaltation in the celestial kingdom, one must enter into this holiest of ordinances.
( Ezra Taft Benson, “To the Single Adult Brethren of the Church,” Ensign, May 1988, Page 51: Link. )
"And I've said it before, you want to know what Joseph Smith looked like in Nauvoo, just look at Trump." - Fence Sitter