FAIR releases online videos

[_beastie]

Zak,

I'm taking some time to put together a more comprehensive post. Hopefully I will have it ready later tonight.

[_skippy the dead]

Zak,

I'm taking some time to put together a more comprehensive post. Hopefully I will have it ready later tonight.

Yay! I can't help myself - this thread is terribly fascinating for some reason.

[_beastie]

Here's the first draft. I'm still looking for more Schmidt information.

I’m going to try to pull together the information that is currently scattered over the thread. First, I will use the C. Ray article.

The remains of horses have been reported from cave deposits in the state of Yucatan, Mexico, on two previous occasions. Mercer (THE HILL CAVES OF YUCATAN, LIPPINCOTT, PHILA., 1896, p. 1972 and map opposite title page) found horse remains in three caves in the Serrania, a low range of limestone hills lying in southwestern Yucatan and trending roughly parallel to the southwest border of that state. The horse material was associated with pot sherds and other artifacts and showed no evidence of fossilization. Cope (in Mercer op. cit. p. 172, footnote) examined the material and considered it referable to Equus occidentalis on morphological characteristics but noted absence of fossilization.

This one has clearly been debunked. I’ll provide the link but it may not link to the exact page, so here is the information. This is from the book called “Ice Age Cave Faunas of North America”, by Blaine W. Schubert. The cited pages are available via a google book search. The following is page 263.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tfUGeB ... ns&source=
web&ots=fgCOKY7ncX&sig=XA2goBoYAZ7_Z65EyGj6-hr1Knw#PPA263,M1

Henry C. Mercer (1896), who explored the cave and dug 2 pits in Chamber 3 in 1895, found similar ceramic and nonceramic layers. His attempt to locate preceramic artifacts with extinct fauna in association with Loltun or other nearby caves was unsuccessful. Some skeletal remains dubiously identified as Ursus (bear) were found in Loltun in a ceramic layer. Mercer reported the presence of Equus (horse) teeth and bones on the surface of three different caves. Although similar to the extinct horse Equus Occidentalis, the remains were identified as modern horse. Cope (1896) studied the remains of other animals collected by Mercer in Loltun, including species of opossums, bats, rabbit, mice, peccary, and deer if two sizes.

in my opinion, this reference clearly debunks the Mercer horses.

To continue the Ray article:

Hatt records numerous fragments of Equus ?conservidens from Actun Lara, one of Mercer’s caves, (1953, Cranbrook Inst. Sci., Bull. 33, pp. 71-72 and map 2). These remains were tentatively referred to Equus tau by R. A. Stirton (in Hatt, p. 71). Hibbard regards E. tau as probably synonymous with E. conservidens (1955, Contrib., Mus. Paleo. Univ. Mich.,12:61). Although the teeth and bones were in many cases heavily encased in lime, pottery occurred throughout the deposits and two foot bones present in the upper layer of two layers in which horse remains occurred were identified as those of domestic cattle.

To deal with this Hatt citation, I continue with the same citation from the previously linked Ice Age Cave Faunas of North America text, same page:

The most extensive study of the region was undertaken by Mr. and Mrs. Robert T. Hatt, who in 1929 and 1947 explored fourteen “cenotes” and dug in nine of them. (Hatt et al 1953). Two cenotes near Loltun contained the remains of extinct animals. Pleistocence Equus conversidens was recovered from Actun Lara. Actun Spukil produced a left tympanic ring and a molar fragment from the ground sloth, Paramylodon. In all, Hatt et al. (1953) collected forty-five species of mammals, of which six had been introduced by the Spaniards.

The Hatts collected only on the surface and in the top 10 cm of sediments in Chamber 3 in Loltun Cave (Hatt et al. 1953). Although further excavations were not pursued, the Hatts did recover twenty four mammal species, five of which were introduced (Mus Musculus, Canis familiaris, Equus axinus, Capra Hircus, and Bos Taurus). Native species represented two marsupials, one insectivore, four bats, one lagomorph, nine rodents, one carnivore, and one artiodactyls (Table 10.1). Hatt et al. (1953) indicated in their final report that the Loltun Cave was the most promising archaeological site for obtaining clues to the cultural and faunal changes since the end of the Pleistocene.

Once again, this reference clearly debunks the Hatt citation. The horse bones are identified as Pleistocence Equus conversidens.

Another citation refers to the horse remains found in the Loltun cave. This is from the text “The Cambridge History of the Native Peoples of North America”, page 62, which is available from a google book search:

http://books.google.com/books?id=VLTy_m ... ins&source
=web&ots=9xdLGbqlE6&sig=7BfewBXK6KN-_AqFPpNCqZHYxzI#PPA62,M1

Currently, only one site in Mesoamerica supports the hypothesis of human occupation in lowland environments before 12,000 years ago. In the Puuc Hills of northern Yucatan, the lowest levels of excavations reported by R. Velazquez at Loltun Cave have produced some crude stone and bone tools along with the remains of horse, mastodon, and other now extinct Pleistocene animals. Felines, deer, and numerous rodents round out the archaeological assemblage. No radiocarbon dates have been forthcoming for this proposed early components that underlies later ceramic occupations. On the basis of stone tool typology and faunal association, MacNeish has proposed that the lower levels of Loltun Cave are somewhere between 40,000 and 15,000 years old.

Note that this source clearly states that the horse remains “underlies” later ceramic occupations”. The remains were in the lowest levels which were dated between 40,000 and 15,000 years ago.


To continue with the Ray article:

It is now possible to report horse remains of probably pre-Columbian age from a new locality in Yucatan. This material consists of one complete upper molar and 3 fragmentary lower molars, all preserved in the Museum of Comparative Zoology (Cat. No 3937). The teeth constitute a part of a large collection of vertebrate remains obtained by archaeologists of the Carnegie Institution of Washington during excavation at the Mayan ruins of Mayapan, Yucatan (20,38N,89,28W). This collection was submitted to the author for identification, and a checklist of the material is in preparation. The horse teeth were collected in cenote Ch’en Mul (Section Q, topographic map of the ruins of Mayapan, Jones, Carnegie Inst. Washington, Dept. Archaeology, Current Rept. 1, 1952) from the bottom stratum in a sequence of unconsolidated earth almost 2 meters in thickness. As in the deposits reported by Mercer and Hatt, pottery occurs throughout the stratigraphic section. The horse teeth are not specifically identifiable. They are considered to be pre-Columbian on the basis of depth of burial and degree of mineralization. Such mineralization was observed in no other bone or tooth in the collection although thousands were examined, some of which were found in close proximity to the horse teeth.

Stan Larson already debunked this particular assertion (along with the infamous Hester citation) in his book The Quest for Gold Plates, page 190:

“Sorenson, in an effort to support his position that the horse might have survived into Book of Mormon times, stated the following:

Pleistocene fauna could not have survived as late as 2000 BC. Dr. Ripley Bullen thought horses could have lasted until 3000 BC in Florida, and JJ Hester granted a possible 4000 BC survival date.

Let us examine Sorenson’s three assertions. (1)Paul S. Martin, professor of geosciences at the University of Arizona, was quoted out of context, for after expressing the theoretical possibility that Sorenson referred to, Martin then made the following strong statement: “But in the past two decades concordant stratigraphic, palynological [relating to the study of pollen], archaeological, and radiocarbon evidence to demonstrate beyond doubt the post-glacial survival of an extinct large mammal has been confined to extinct species of Bison.” (2)Ripley Bullen spoke in general of the extinction of mammals in Florida and not specifically of the horse as Sorenson asserted. (3)James J. Hester, professor of anthropology at the University of Colorado, did not suggest that the horse survived until 4000 BC, but rather used a date more than two thousand years earlier. Hester’s date of 8240 years before the present (with a variance of +- 960 years) was published in 1967, but the validity of the radiocarbon dating for these horse remains at whitewater Draw, Arizona, has been questioned. The next youngest horse of 10,370 +- 350 years ago has a better quality of material being dated and stronger association between the material actually being tested and the extinct genus. Clearly, Sorenson’s three arguments for a late survival of the horse do not hold up under scrutiny. Certain now extinct species may have survived in particular areas after the Ice Age. For example, one scholar recently stated that “in one locality in Alberta, Equus conversidens [a short-legged, small horse] may have been in existence about 8,000 BP (Before Present). While there may have been small “pockets” of horses surviving after the Late Pleistocene extinctions, the time period for such survivals would still be long before the earliest Jaredites of the Book of Mormon.

John W. Welch, professor of law at BYU, referred to the find in Mayapan or horse remains which were “considered by the zoologist studying them to be pre-Columbian.” Examination of Welch’s citation reveals that he misinterpreted the evidence, which does not date to pre Columbian times (and hence potentially to the Book of Mormon period) but rather to prehistoric Pleistocene times. This find at Cenote Ch’en Mul consists of one complete horse tooth and fragments of three others, which were found six feet below the surface in black earth and were “heavily mineralized (fossilized), unlike any other material in the collections.” Thousands of bones and teeth were examined at Mayapan, which is a Late Post Classic site established in the thirteenth century AD, but these four horse teeth were the only ones fossilized. The reporting scholar did not suggest that the Mayan people hade ever seen a pre-Columbian horse, but that in Pleistocene times horses lived in Yucatan, and that “the tooth fragments reported here could have been transported in fossil condition by the Maya as curiosities. Thus, Welch’s assertion about pre-Columbian horses must be corrected to refer to ancient Pleistocene horses, since these fossilized horse teeth at Mayapan date to thousands of years before the Jaredites.”

Larson is likely referring to the same sources I cited above, since Welch referred to Mercer, Hatt, and Ray. In particular, he probably has in mind this last paragraph from Ray’s article:

It is by no means implied that pre-Columbian horses were known to the Mayans, but it seems likely that horses were present on the Yucatan Peninsula in pre-Mayan time. The tooth fragments reported here could have been transported in fossil condition as curios by the Mayans, but the more numerous horse remains reported by Hatt and Mercer (if truly pre-Columbian) could scarcely be explained in this manner. CLAYTON C. RAY, Museum of Comparative Zoology, Cambridge, Mass. Received May 28,1956).

Certainly the Pleistocence era horse remains found in the caves counts as “pre-Mayan”.

As I noted earlier, the dating of the Alberta remains has been corrected:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... mt=&_orig=
search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=
38469a2189f734582eae4acfa67af00c

New radiocarbon dates for Columbian mammoth and Mexican horse from southern Alberta and the Lateglacial regional fauna
Leonard V. Hills , , a and C. Richard Haringtonb
a Department of Geology and Geophysics, University of Calgary, 2500 University Drive N.W., Calgary, Canada, AB T2N 1N4
b Canadian Museum of Nature (Paleobiology), Ottawa, Canada, ON K1P 6P4
Received 14 January 2003; accepted 2 March 2003. ; Available online 18 June 2003.
Abstract

New radiocarbon dates on Columbian mammoth (Mammuthus columbi) and Mexican horse (Equus conversidens) specimens from southern Alberta are 10,930±100 BP and 10,870±45 years BP, respectively—older than originally thought. These specimens are reviewed in the light of 10 other sites in southern Alberta that have yielded large mammal remains radiocarbon dated to about 11,000 BP. Thus, the regional fauna includes at least 11 mammalian species. This fauna was not restricted to the foothills, but extended well onto the plains and may prove useful in correlating foothills terraces with those of the plains.

This brings me to an important point. Many of the sources that FARMS scholars find to support their assertion that horses really did exist during the Book of Mormon time period in Mesoamerica are quite dated, as the above sources demonstrate. This is partly due to the fact that radio-carbon dating rendered unreliable results in its infancy.

Not since the early years of 14C dating, when laboratory protocols for sample selection and pretreatment were not standardized or well understood by consumers of dates (see, e.g., Martin 1958 and Hester 1960), has anyone seriously advanced the thought that mammoths or mastodons survived into the mid-Holocene. Those North American Holocene dates of yore were not replicated and could not be supported stratigraphically and geochemically. They moulder in the graveyard of unverified measurements.[RADIOCARBON, VoL. 37, No. 1, 1995, P. 7-10]MAMMOTH EXTINCTION: TWO CONTINENTS AND WRANGEL ISLAND, PAUL S. MARTIN

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:zK ... diocarbon/
GetFileServlet%3Ffile%3Dfile:///data1/pdf/Radiocarbon/Volume37/Number1/
azu_radiocarbon_v37_n1_7_10_v.pdf%26type%3Dapplication/pdf+MAMMOTH+EXTINCTION:
+TWO+CONTINENTS+AND+WRANGEL+ISLAND,+PAUL+S.+MARTIN&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us


One last reference remains, and that is John Sorenson’s summary of an Spanish article written by Peter Schmidt, regarding the dating of the strata in the cave. Here is the assertion:

Publications from the late 1950s reported results from excavations by scientists working on the Yucatan Peninsula. Excavations at the site of Mayapan, which dates to a few centuries before the Spaniards arrived, yielded horse bones in four spots. (Two of the lots were from the surface, however, and might represent Spanish horses.) From another site, the Cenote (water hole) Ch'en Mul, came other traces, this time from a firm archaeological context. In the bottom stratum in a sequence of levels of unconsolidated earth almost two meters in thickness, two horse teeth were found. They were partially mineralized, indicating that they were definitely ancient and could not have come from any Spanish animal. The interesting thing is that Maya pottery was also found in the stratified soil where the teeth were located.2

Subsequent digging has expanded the evidence for an association of humans with horses. But the full story actually goes back to 1895, when American paleontologist Henry C. Mercer went to Yucatan hoping to find remains of Ice Age man. He visited 29 caves in the hill area—the Puuc—of the peninsula and tried stratigraphic excavation in 10 of them. But the results were confused, and he came away disillusioned. He did find horse bones in three caves (Actun Sayab, Actun Lara, and Chektalen). In terms of their visible characteristics, those bones should have been classified as from the Pleistocene American horse species, then called Equus occidentalis L. However, Mercer decided that since the remains were near the surface, they must actually be from the modern horse, Equus equus, that the Spaniards had brought with them to the New World, and so he reported them as such.3 In 1947 Robert T. Hatt repeated Mercer's activities. He found within Actun Lara and one other cave more remains of the American horse (in his day it was called Equus conversidens), along with bones of other extinct animals. Hatt recommended that any future work concentrate on Loltun Cave, where abundant animal and cultural remains could be seen.


It took until 1977 before that recommendation bore fruit. Two Mexican archaeologists carried out a project that included a complete survey of the complex system of subterranean cavities (made by underground water that had dissolved the subsurface limestone). They also did stratigraphic excavation in areas in the Loltun complex not previously visited. The pits they excavated revealed a sequence of 16 layers, which they numbered from the surface downward. Bones of extinct animals (including mammoth) appear in the lowest layers.

Pottery and other cultural materials were found in levels VII and above. But in some of those artifact-bearing strata there were horse bones, even in level II. A radiocarbon date for the beginning of VII turned out to be around 1800 BC. The pottery fragments above that would place some portions in the range of at least 900–400 BC and possibly later. The report on this work concludes with the observation that "something went on here that is still difficult to explain." Some archaeologists have suggested that the horse bones were stirred upward from lower to higher levels by the action of tunneling rodents, but they admit that this explanation is not easy to accept. The statement has also been made that paleontologists will not be pleased at the idea that horses survived to such a late date as to be involved with civilized or near-civilized people whose remains are seen in the ceramic-using levels.5 Surprisingly, the Mexican researchers show no awareness of the horse teeth discovered in 1957 by Carnegie Institution scientists Pollock and Ray. (Some uncomfortable scientific facts seem to need rediscovering time and time again.)

The footnote for number 5: Schmidt, "La entrada," 254.

First, I have already shared subsequent research into the Mercer/Hatt/Ray horse finds, and they have been demonstrated to be either modern or Pleistocene remains. So this suggestion that this article by Peter Schmidt will somehow validate the idea that horses existed during the Book of Mormon time period in Mesoamerica seems far fetched. In addition, the assertion that the remains are seen “in the ceramic using levels” is misleading, given the fact that the remains were at the BOTTOM of Level VII. Here is the dating arrived at from sources including Schmidt. This is from the aforementioned Ice Age Cave Faunas of North America, page 262:

Stratigraphic and chronological sequences for the excavated units were established, but contradictory data from the field notes imply possible mixing of biological and cultural remains. The sequence as reported is as follows (Schmidt 1988)

1. Levels I through VII are from the Ceramic stage, but extinct animal remains occur at the bottom of Level VII.
2. Level VIII represents the preceramic stage, including some lithic elements and extinct fauna. The boundary between the Pleistocene or the Holocene may be located here or at the bottom of Level VII.

Note that the demarcation for the Pleistocene could feasibly be at the bottom of Level VII. In fact, elsewhere in the same text that very dating is utilized. From page 285 in the same text:

Loltun Cave is found at 40m. elevation in the southeastern portion of the state of Yucatan., 7 m. south of Oxkutzcab. Several publications about the studies undertaken on the remains from this cave are available, including Hatt and his collaborators (Hatt et al 1953) and by personnel of the National Institute of Anthropology and History (Velazquez 1980, Alvarez 1982, Alvarez and Polaco 1982, Alvarez and Arroyo-Cabrales and Alvarez 1990, Pollaco et al 1998, see also Chapter 10 of this volume). The known stratigraphy contains sixteen levels; sediments from levels VII to XVI are Pleistocene in age. Level XI is a volcanic ash correlated with the Roseau tephra, detected in numerous

Why was there early confusion regarding these finds? The following sheds some light on the subject. From an abstract for the article Excavations in Footprint Cave, Caves Branch, Belize Elizabeth Graham, Logan McNatt, Mark A. Gutchen
Journal of Field Archaeology, Vol. 7, No. 2 (Summer, 1980), pp. 153-172
doi:10.2307/529757:

The use of caves by the ancient Maya has been previously documented, but the nature of artifact preservation in these caves presents unique problems not encountered in surface sites of the region. The absence of stratigraphy, though it means that we can view objects as they were left by the Maya, also means that perspective can be distorted, for actions that may have taken place over a long period of time result in an arrangement of objects that appears to us to be synchronic. The nature of artifact preservation in caves presents another, more pressing problem: artifacts are accessible and therefore easily stolen. Although all surface sites in Belize are endangered, cave sites are especially so, and in recent years theft of artifacts and attendant destruction of sites has increased. The following is a report of excavations in a cave that is one of many in an area that has begun to experience the destructive effects of looting within the last decade. We hope that this report will heighten the awareness of archaeologists of the significance of cave sites and stimulate interest in the reconnaissance and recording of such sites before the looters prevail.

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0093-4 ... B2-U&size=
LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

[Guest]

Here's the first draft. I'm still looking for more Schmidt information.

I’m going to try to pull together the information that is currently scattered over the thread. First, I will use the C. Ray article.

The remains of horses have been reported from cave deposits in the state of Yucatan, Mexico, on two previous occasions. Mercer (THE HILL CAVES OF YUCATAN, LIPPINCOTT, PHILA., 1896, p. 1972 and map opposite title page) found horse remains in three caves in the Serrania, a low range of limestone hills lying in southwestern Yucatan and trending roughly parallel to the southwest border of that state. The horse material was associated with pot sherds and other artifacts and showed no evidence of fossilization. Cope (in Mercer op. cit. p. 172, footnote) examined the material and considered it referable to Equus occidentalis on morphological characteristics but noted absence of fossilization.

This one has clearly been debunked. I’ll provide the link but it may not link to the exact page, so here is the information. This is from the book called “Ice Age Cave Faunas of North America”, by Blaine W. Schubert. The cited pages are available via a google book search. The following is page 263.

http://books.google.com/books?id=tfUGeB ... ns&source=
web&ots=fgCOKY7ncX&sig=XA2goBoYAZ7_Z65EyGj6-hr1Knw#PPA263,M1

Henry C. Mercer (1896), who explored the cave and dug 2 pits in Chamber 3 in 1895, found similar ceramic and nonceramic layers. His attempt to locate preceramic artifacts with extinct fauna in association with Loltun or other nearby caves was unsuccessful. Some skeletal remains dubiously identified as Ursus (bear) were found in Loltun in a ceramic layer. Mercer reported the presence of Equus (horse) teeth and bones on the surface of three different caves. Although similar to the extinct horse Equus Occidentalis, the remains were identified as modern horse. Cope (1896) studied the remains of other animals collected by Mercer in Loltun, including species of opossums, bats, rabbit, mice, peccary, and deer if two sizes.

in my opinion, this reference clearly debunks the Mercer horses.

Surprise surpirse I have to disagree... True... it could show that Equus Occidentalis was extinct... but... Who ever claimed that Equus Occidentalis where Nephite horses. There are too many unaswered questions here.... beastie.

1) What is ment by "Modern Horse"?
2) With out a Carbon Date, the scientists are "assuming" the Spanish brought them. And yes these horses being on the surface could very well mean that they are spanish in origen.

But, Did not the Jaredites stop in the valley of nimrod to get animals to take with them on their journey and to hunt for provisions?

Ether 2:1-4

Jaredites where well within "Modern times" (ie 10,000 BP) but... they werent with in "Spanish Times" (1842AD)

See the problem is until you can show these bones C14 Dated to Spanish times... You cannot make the leep you are trying to make without assumption.

3) isn't Pecarry a type of Pig? I thought Nephites/Jaredites didn't have farm animals?

I'll answer more as time permits.

[_beastie]

Surprise surpirse I half to disagree... True... it could show that Equus Occidentalis was extinct... but... Who ever claimed that Equus Occidentalis where Nephite horses. There are too many unaswered questions here.... beastie.

1) What is ment by "Modern Horse"?
2) With out a Carbon Date, the scientists are "assuming" the Spanish brought them.

Did not the Jaredites stop in the valley of nimrod to get animals to take with them on their journey and to hunt for provisions?

Ether 2:1-4

3) isn't Pecarry a type of Pig? I thought Nephites/Jaredites didn't have farm animals?

I'll answer more as time permits.

Focus, Zak, Focus. We are discussing one very targeted issue: do the Mercer bones support the existence of horses during the Book of Mormon time period?

Yes or no?

(by the way, modern horse likely refers to the specific species of horses that exists during this era, and the post-conquest spanish horses and today's horses would both be of that species)

[Guest]

Depends beastie...

If "Modern Horse" means anything from 10,000 BP to Present. The Answer would be Yes. Very Possibly.

If "Modern Horse" Means... Horses that the Spanish Brought... the Answerr is unconclusive.

See you keep missing the reall issue... When did these horses get there?

If they where brougt by the Spanish... the answer is a definate no. They arnt Nephite.

But... if they C14 Date prior to the Spanish... they very well could be... nephite or Jeradite horses.

But heres the deal... we have a C14 date of 1800bc on layer five... these horses where above that. So the only way to rule them out as being brought by the Spanish is C14 Dating the Bones, themselve.

[_skippy the dead]

<snip>
3) isn't Pecarry a type of Pig? I thought Nephites/Jaredites didn't have farm animals?

As the wild boar in my area will tell you, not all "pigs" are farm animals. Nor, does it appear, are the pecarry. Google is your friend. Check Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peccary).

[_beastie]

Depends beastie...

If "Modern Horse" means anything from 10,000 BP to Present. The Answer would be Yes.

If "Modern Horse" Means... Horses tghat the Spanish Brought... the Answerr is unconclusive.

Where is the head banging icon when you need it?????

[_beastie]

I'll take a deeeeep breath and try again.

Zak,

Since virtually all scholars accept that there was no horse in the New World after the prior Pleistocene extinction, when they use the term "modern horse" they are referring to a horse that dates post-conquest.

deeeep, cleansing breaths... deeep cleansing breaths....

Now, how in the WORLD would evidence of a post-conquest modern horse possibly support the assertion that there were horses during the Book of Mormon time period????

[Guest]

And there you go again...

that's the very assumption we are debating, and questioning...

You are starting from the premise of assumption. That there where no horses... and that's why you keep missing the tree in the forest.

Becuase according to the Jaredites... they brought cattle with them. ANd if im not mistaken.... it an argument that is discussind in the AntiMormon Wrag the JOD... that the Jaredites repoulated this continent.