Outing other Exmos or exmo sympathisers

[_Boaz & Lidia]

You can take the boy outta the trailer but you can't take the trailer outta the boy.

I'm obviously up way too late.

Remember, its not a home until you take the wheels off!

[_Jersey Girl]

You can take the boy outta the trailer but you can't take the trailer outta the boy.

I'm obviously up way too late.

Remember, its not a home until you take the wheels off!

Yeah, but what if the wheels are permanently attached?

[_guy sajer]

You're not tied to one university for life. You can move on.

Tell that to a 50 something BYU prof who has sunk family and social ties deep into Provo and BYU, is scrambling to prepare for retirement, who has published some, but not a lot, and for whom there is very little market demand, who has a good teaching job with good pay and a reasonable teaching load (whose opportunity cost is teaching at a teaching school at much less pay with a much heavier teaching load and he possibly loses a portion of his pension), and so forth, but who's journey in life leads him/her to the conclusion that Mormonism isn't true.

So, you're advice would be "it's your fault, you knew the risks, if you don't like it, get another job."

Yes, it's really THAT easy.

Jesus Horatio Christ, Nehor, what color is the sky on the planet you live on?

Simplistic bromides like this might work for Dr. Laura and you, but actual life is a bit more complicated that simplistic slogans and detached soundbite analysis.

[_Mercury]

For those of you who don't know what it looks like to an outsider. When posters on boards speak of "outing" others, it just screams "cult".

I'm so not kidding.

Well there is no policy for outing anyone in the LDS Church that I am aware of and I have never heard it promoted. Oh sure there are some odd ducks like Will what is his name that threaten and bluster. But nobody ever talks about outing anyone.

Let's not forget that it is Church policy to "out" sinners and doubters who are employed by or attend BYU. The outing occurs when a student or employee confesses some misdeed to the Bishop, who then, as a matter of policy, shares information of the misdeed (if not the always the specific details) to BYU, so that it in turn might take disciplinary action.

Let us also not forget how "courts of love," in effect, out sinners in a very public way and allow information about members' personal lives into the public domain.

The callous disregard Mormon Inc. has for privacy is deplorable.

Wait a minute. A confession to a bishop is confidential. It sounds like at BYU, confessions to ward bishops are a pipeline to an Honor Code violation hearing.

Good grief, could we get any more draconian?

Yes. LDS missionaries are more draconian. Hell, I think i'd rather live in North Korea.

[_silentkid]

However it is one of their own making.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. LOL!!! Har-de-har. Giggle, giggle. I'll send them an email and let them know that the great Nehor has spoken. One question for you, Nehor (but you probably won't answer it since you've left the board): Are you ever wrong?

[_Dr. Shades]

I didn't know I was required to believe that revelations to any mission leader were infallible, what my living conditions would be, what I'd be required to believe, or even that the yellow stitching of my Doc Martens were sinful.

Is there a story behind that last comment? If so, would you mind sharing it with us?

[_rcrocket]

Actually in my case, No. The ecclesiastical endorsement was instituted after I joined the faculty.

I dispute that. The requirement was in place at least as early as 1973 when I started attending there and my grandfather was still alive and in the administration.

Nonetheless, you knew about the ecclesiastical endorsement at some point and could have opted out to get other employment. I have classmates who opted to have pre-marital sex and live together, and they simply dropped out of the Y and went to the U. You were in the same exact position.

I don't buy it that you had set down roots and thus it was unfair for BYU to require you to adhere to the Honor Code you so rigorously despise. Have you tried applying to Fuller Theological Institute, Oral Roberts University? They have honor codes, as well.

[_guy sajer]

Actually in my case, No. The ecclesiastical endorsement was instituted after I joined the faculty.

I dispute that. The requirement was in place at least as early as 1973 when I started attending there and my grandfather was still alive and in the administration.

Nonetheless, you knew about the ecclesiastical endorsement at some point and could have opted out to get other employment. I have classmates who opted to have pre-marital sex and live together, and they simply dropped out of the Y and went to the U. You were in the same exact position.

I don't buy it that you had set down roots and thus it was unfair for BYU to require you to adhere to the Honor Code you so rigorously despise. Have you tried applying to Fuller Theological Institute, Oral Roberts University? They have honor codes, as well.

Robert, to the best of my memory, the required, yearly ecclesiastical endorsement did not begin until AFTER I began employment in 1991. Nor, for that matter, do I remember it as a yearly requirement when I was a student from 1978-1986 (undergraduate, mission, MBA). My memory could be faulty, but I'm reasonably certain that there was no yearly requirement until at least after 1991.

True, I could have opted out, and I did. You will recall I resigned. I did exactly what you'd expect/want me to do, so why all the grief?

Also, I adhered to the honor code pretty rigorously for most my tenure there. When it became clear that I could not (nor could I get through the temple recommend--EE process without lying), and I was not prepared to lie for the rest of my life, I made the choice to resign.

But the point is not whether one lives the honor code/EE (I fully agree that if one is not committed to it, one should probably, to the extent possible, find more suitable employment), but whether one is free to criticize it.

But I'm also not back tracking from my position that for some people it is easier to leave (I chose to leave when I did because, in part, I recognized the longer I waited, the harder it would be to leave) than for others. A simple "if you don't like it, get the hell out" simply doesn't cut it in, for example, the hypothetical case I have posited. Living by such moral absolutes is one thing, but paying one's mortgage, financing one's children's' education, cutting loose of social and family ties, putting one's retirement in jeopardy, taking clearly inferior, unsatisfying work, etc. just so one can satisfy your rigid moral demands is probably not a viable option for many.

As an anecdotal aside, I was at a party some time ago, and an older man approached me and said something like, "so you're the guy who was able to escape from BYU, I really envy you." In the ensuing discussion, I learned he is a long-term faulty in late 50s who would desperately like to leave BYU for similar reasons buts finds himself absolutely trapped there for a variety of reasons. I was lucky, I came to my epiphany when the costs of making major life and career changes were not discouragingly high. Others are not so lucky.

I repeat, you're much to smart Robert to fall into such simplistic ways of thinking. Try to put yourself in the position of those who face hard choices and tell me it's really that cut and dried.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

What was the professor's name again?

[_antishock8]

Actually in my case, No. The ecclesiastical endorsement was instituted after I joined the faculty.

I dispute that. The requirement was in place at least as early as 1973 when I started attending there and my grandfather was still alive and in the administration.

Nonetheless, you knew about the ecclesiastical endorsement at some point and could have opted out to get other employment. I have classmates who opted to have pre-marital sex and live together, and they simply dropped out of the Y and went to the U. You were in the same exact position.

I don't buy it that you had set down roots and thus it was unfair for BYU to require you to adhere to the Honor Code you so rigorously despise. Have you tried applying to Fuller Theological Institute, Oral Roberts University? They have honor codes, as well.