Bible verse by verse

[_huckelberry]

The simple fact is that sin corrupted the entire universe. It would seem rather unfair that some "man" living around Andromeda would have to suffer for the sin of Adam's race... And the proof of this fact is that seemingly black holes are swallowing entire solar systems and asteroids are striking planets everywhere, and yet here we are....

I have not found a way to see black holes as having something to do with a sin corrupted universe. Black holes are a simple result of gravity. Gravity is one of the most important parts of the well ordered universe we live in. Gravity is not corruption. In fact I cannot picture the natural world , the mountaiins, rocks, trees or streams as corrupted by sin. I am able to see people as so corrupted. That corruption is woven throughout the human story. It is best not to confuse it with the simple facts of the natural world like if you fall due to gravity you may get hurt.

I certainly do not read scripture saying the universe is corrupted. I read that Adam is going to have to work and his garden will have weeds. It sounds like a parent speaking to a teenage son. It sounds like there could be some minor natural change, I can think of a couple of cursed weeds, but the result of the fall is really in the hearts of humans. l.
The natural world is not now nor has been completely safe. It is possible to find black holes scary. It is a good thing that they are very far away. In fact they are so far away that due to the time taken for light to travel to us we see them in the condition they were in before the fall.

[_Gunnar]

The simple fact is that sin corrupted the entire universe. It would seem rather unfair that some "man" living around Andromeda would have to suffer for the sin of Adam's race... And the proof of this fact is that seemingly black holes are swallowing entire solar systems and asteroids are striking planets everywhere, and yet here we are....

I have not found a way to see black holes as having something to do with a sin corrupted universe. Black holes are a simple result of gravity. Gravity is one of the most important parts of the well ordered universe we live in. Gravity is not corruption. In fact I cannot picture the natural world , the mountaiins, rocks, trees or streams as corrupted by sin. I am able to see people as so corrupted. That corruption is woven throughout the human story. It is best not to confuse it with the simple facts of the natural world like if you fall due to gravity you may get hurt.

I certainly do not read scripture saying the universe is corrupted. I read that Adam is going to have to work and his garden will have weeds. It sounds like a parent speaking to a teenage son. It sounds like there could be some minor natural change, I can think of a couple of cursed weeds, but the result of the fall is really in the hearts of humans. l.
The natural world is not now nor has been completely safe. It is possible to find black holes scary. It is a good thing that they are very far away. In fact they are so far away that due to the time taken for light to travel to us we see them in the condition they were in before the fall.

Excellent points, Huckelberry! Thank you for pointing them out. I admire your level headedness on this topic! It will be interesting to see how LittleNipper
attempts to counter those points, and undoubtedly very amusing!

I hope, though, he takes time to enjoy the holidays with his family and loved ones before taking the time to respond. I sincerely would not want him to continue his involvement here during the holidays if his equanimity and holiday spirit might be adversely affected by such involvement. I sincerely wish LittleNipper and everyone else here a very happy holiday season!

[_LittleNipper]

I have not found a way to see black holes as having something to do with a sin corrupted universe. Black holes are a simple result of gravity. Gravity is one of the most important parts of the well ordered universe we live in. Gravity is not corruption. In fact I cannot picture the natural world , the mountaiins, rocks, trees or streams as corrupted by sin. I am able to see people as so corrupted. That corruption is woven throughout the human story. It is best not to confuse it with the simple facts of the natural world like if you fall due to gravity you may get hurt.

I certainly do not read scripture saying the universe is corrupted. I read that Adam is going to have to work and his garden will have weeds. It sounds like a parent speaking to a teenage son. It sounds like there could be some minor natural change, I can think of a couple of cursed weeds, but the result of the fall is really in the hearts of humans. l.
The natural world is not now nor has been completely safe. It is possible to find black holes scary. It is a good thing that they are very far away. In fact they are so far away that due to the time taken for light to travel to us we see them in the condition they were in before the fall.

Excellent points, Huckelberry! Thank you for pointing them out. I admire your level headedness on this topic! It will be interesting to see how LittleNipper
attempts to counter those points, and undoubtedly very amusing!

I hope, though, he takes time to enjoy the holidays with his family and loved ones before taking the time to respond. I sincerely would not want him to continue his involvement here during the holidays if his equanimity and holiday spirit might be adversely affected by such involvement. I sincerely wish LittleNipper and everyone else here a very happy holiday season!

What you admire is a rather poor theroreticalized "excuse" for a "natural" resolution for the destruction of planets, stars, and solar systems. Continued destruction is not the thing perfection is made. The wages of SIN is death. Before sin there was no death and destruction. If you cannot see this logic, I doubt that you understand sin and likely feel that "homosexual" marriage is simply another "progression" of man from a scared ape on his journey to becoming a god. I had a very enjoyable Christmas with my family as we celebrated The Birthday of the Savior from sin.

[_Gunnar]

I have not found a way to see black holes as having something to do with a sin corrupted universe. Black holes are a simple result of gravity. Gravity is one of the most important parts of the well ordered universe we live in. Gravity is not corruption. In fact I cannot picture the natural world , the mountaiins, rocks, trees or streams as corrupted by sin. I am able to see people as so corrupted. That corruption is woven throughout the human story. It is best not to confuse it with the simple facts of the natural world like if you fall due to gravity you may get hurt.

I certainly do not read scripture saying the universe is corrupted. I read that Adam is going to have to work and his garden will have weeds. It sounds like a parent speaking to a teenage son. It sounds like there could be some minor natural change, I can think of a couple of cursed weeds, but the result of the fall is really in the hearts of humans. l.
The natural world is not now nor has been completely safe. It is possible to find black holes scary. It is a good thing that they are very far away. In fact they are so far away that due to the time taken for light to travel to us we see them in the condition they were in before the fall.

Excellent points, Huckelberry! Thank you for pointing them out. I admire your level headedness on this topic! It will be interesting to see how LittleNipper
attempts to counter those points, and undoubtedly very amusing!

I hope, though, he takes time to enjoy the holidays with his family and loved ones before taking the time to respond. I sincerely would not want him to continue his involvement here during the holidays if his equanimity and holiday spirit might be adversely affected by such involvement. I sincerely wish LittleNipper and everyone else here a very happy holiday season!

What you admire is a rather poor theroreticalized "excuse" for a "natural" resolution for the destruction of planets, stars, and solar systems. Continued destruction is not the thing perfection is made. The wages of SIN is death. Before sin there was no death and destruction. If you cannot see this logic, I doubt that you understand sin and likely feel that "homosexual" marriage is simply another "progression" of man from a scared ape on his journey to becoming a god. I had a very enjoyable Christmas with my family as we celebrated The Birthday of the Savior from sin.

Sorry, LittleNipper! You only raised your silliness quotient yet again with that response. You obviously don't understand what Huckeberry was getting at. For example, astronomers have determined that the massive black hole at the center of our own galaxy that is actively devouring stars is 26,000 light years away. That means that what we are now observing about its behavior occurred 26,000 years ago because that is how long it takes for light from there to reach us. That is at least 20,000 years before the time you believe "The Fall" occurred. Unmistakable evidence of similar black holes, supernovae explosions and other destructive events have been observed in distant galaxies known to be millions of light years away.

No matter how you try to spin it, there is simply no honest or reasonable way to avoid the conclusion that both the earth and especially the universe is far, far older than you are willing to believe, and that your ideas about Adam's fall corrupting the entire universe are not only total nonsense, but contrary to original Christian doctrine. The only thing you have to counter this conclusion is your own, arrogant and obstinate refusal to even consider the possibility that you could possibly be mistaken about either Biblical inerrancy or your peculiar interpretation of the Bible. This is worth absolutely nothing! There is no credible justification whatsoever for supposing that The Universe ever was or ever will be perfect according to your particular definition of "perfect." You can't even claim evidence for your views because you have several times tacitly admitted that you fundamentally reject the necessity of objective evidence or proof for your views, and are determined to reject out of hand any and all evidence that conflicts with them.

[_LittleNipper]

Excellent points, Huckelberry! Thank you for pointing them out. I admire your level headedness on this topic! It will be interesting to see how LittleNipper
attempts to counter those points, and undoubtedly very amusing!

I hope, though, he takes time to enjoy the holidays with his family and loved ones before taking the time to respond. I sincerely would not want him to continue his involvement here during the holidays if his equanimity and holiday spirit might be adversely affected by such involvement. I sincerely wish LittleNipper and everyone else here a very happy holiday season!

What you admire is a rather poor theroreticalized "excuse" for a "natural" resolution for the destruction of planets, stars, and solar systems. Continued destruction is not the thing perfection is made. The wages of SIN is death. Before sin there was no death and destruction. If you cannot see this logic, I doubt that you understand sin and likely feel that "homosexual" marriage is simply another "progression" of man from a scared ape on his journey to becoming a god. I had a very enjoyable Christmas with my family as we celebrated The Birthday of the Savior from sin.

Sorry, LittleNipper! You only raised your silliness quotient yet again with that response. You obviously don't understand what Huckeberry was getting at. For example, astronomers have determined that the massive black hole at the center of our own galaxy that is actively devouring stars is 26,000 light years away. That means that what we are now observing about its behavior occurred 26,000 years ago because that is how long it takes for light from there to reach us. That is at least 20,000 years before the time you believe "The Fall" occurred. Unmistakable evidence of similar black holes, supernovae explosions and other destructive events have been observed in distant galaxies known to be millions of light years away.

No matter how you try to spin it, there is simply no honest or reasonable way to avoid the conclusion that both the earth and especially the universe is far, far older than you are willing to believe, and that your ideas about Adam's fall corrupting the entire universe are not only total nonsense, but contrary to original Christian doctrine. The only thing you have to counter this conclusion is your own, arrogant and obstinate refusal to even consider the possibility that you could possibly be mistaken about either Biblical inerrancy or your peculiar interpretation of the Bible. This is worth absolutely nothing! There is no credible justification whatsoever for supposing that The Universe ever was or ever will be perfect according to your particular definition of "perfect." You can't even claim evidence for your views because you have several times tacitly admitted that you fundamentally reject the necessity of objective evidence or proof for your views, and are determined to reject out of hand any and all evidence that conflicts with them.

Sorry, but you are only demonstrating your own beliefs and they do not reflect the Bible. I believe that the entire Universe is likely only 10 thousand years old and that the Flood likely happened about 6000 years ago at the most. The Lord spread out the Universe like a garment. The only credible Christian belief is that GOD created the Universe and that He did this in one week and not millions and billions of years. And I might add that that is the ONLY ORIGINAL Christian belief. Anything else is not biblical.

[_LittleNipper]

Joshua 16:1-10 The Southern Boundary of the Tribes of Joseph (Ephraim and the half-tribe of Manasseh): This boundary extended from the Jordan River at Jericho through the wilderness and the hill country to Bethel. It then went from Bethel to Luz, then on to Ataroth, in the territory of the Archites; and west to the border of the Japhletites as far as Lower Beth-horon, then to Gezer and on over to the Mediterranean. The Land Given to the Tribe of Ephraim: The eastern boundary began at Ataroth-addar. There running to Upper Beth-horon, on to the Mediterranean Sea. The northern boundary began at the Sea, ran east past Michmethath, continued on past Taanath-shiloh and Janoah. From Janoah it turned southward to Ataroth and Naarah, touched Jericho, and ended at the Jordan River. The western half of the northern boundary went from Tappuah and followed along Kanah Brook to the Mediterranean Sea. Ephraim was also given some of the cities in the territory of the half-tribe of Manasseh. The Canaanites living in Gezer were never driven out and they still lived as slaves among the people of Ephraim at the time of this documentation.

The Bible is geologically accurate, unlike many faux religious documents. The Bible has been used time and again in locating archeological digs.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


1 And the lot for the sons of Joseph goeth out from Jordan [by] Jericho, to the waters of Jericho on the east, to the wilderness going up from Jericho in the hill-country of Beth-El,

2 and hath gone out from Beth-El to Luz, and passed over unto the border of Archi [to] Ataroth,

3 and gone down westward unto the border of Japhleti, unto the border of Beth-Horon the lower, and unto Gezer, and its outgoings have been at the sea.

4 And the sons of Joseph -- Manasseh and Ephraim -- inherit.

5 And the border of the sons of Ephraim is by their families; and the border of their inheritance is on the east, Atroth-Addar unto Beth-Horon the upper;

6 and the border hath gone out at the sea, to Michmethah on the north, and the border hath gone round eastward [to] Taanath-Shiloh, and passed over it eastward to Janohah,

7 and gone down from Janohah [to] Ataroth, and to Naarath, and touched against Jericho, and gone out at the Jordan.

8 From Tappuah the border goeth westward unto the brook of Kanah, and its outgoings have been at the sea: this [is] the inheritance of the tribe of the sons of Ephraim, for their families.

9 And the separate cities of the sons of Ephraim [are] in the midst of the inheritance of the sons of Manasseh, all the cities and their villages;

10 and they have not dispossessed the Canaanite who is dwelling in Gezer, and the Canaanite dwelleth in the midst of Ephraim unto this day, and is to tribute -- a servant.

[_Bazooka]

Nipper, if you saw a child being sexually abused and you knew you had the ability to stop it, can you think of a good reason not to?

How about it, Nipper? What is your answer to Bazooka's question?

Hey Nipper, here's a bump so you can answer my question.

[_LittleNipper]

Nipper, if you saw a child being sexually abused and you knew you had the ability to stop it, can you think of a good reason not to?
How about it, Nipper? What is your answer to Bazooka's question?

Hey Nipper, here's a bump so you can answer my question.

As a Christian, my job would be to try to stop such an offense, just as it is my job to witness to you. I can imagine no reason, as a Christian, that God would not wish me to intervene or not witness to you. I would certainly be praying for God's assistance.

[_Bazooka]

Nipper, if you saw a child being sexually abused and you knew you had the ability to stop it, can you think of a good reason not to?

As a Christian, my job would be to try to stop such an offense, just as it is my job to witness to you. I can imagine no reason, as a Christian, that God would not wish me to intervene or not witness to you. I would certainly be praying for God's assistance.

Me too. I cannot think of any circumstance where I wouldn't intervene.

So why does your God just stand by and let it happen?

[_LittleNipper]

So why does your God just stand by and let it happen?

It is part of a much larger plan which may affect both the perpetrator, the victim, and others connected to both.