LittleNipper wrote:•408 AD Augustine "With the Scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the Scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis, 2:9). •408 AD Augustine "Seven days by our reckoning, after the model of the days of creation, make up a week. By the passage of such weeks time rolls on, and in these weeks one day is constituted by the course of the sun from its rising to its setting; but we must bear in mind that these days indeed recall the days of creation, but without in any way being really similar to them" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis, 4:27).
St Augustine was in agreement with the best science of his day. The sun went daily around the earth attached to a celestial sphere. A great deal of real learning went into developing that system of astronomy. Continuing that learning process resulted in large increases in understanding of the universe in the past five centuries.The solar system is understood very differently now. That understanding is a part of modern physics which underlies modern technology. This is of course is many centuries after Augustine lived.
Augustine came by his ignorance honestly. You do not.
Curiously enough I hear Augustine supporting my understanding of the inspiration of scripture.
LittleNipper wrote:•408 AD Augustine "With the Scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the Scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis, 2:9). •408 AD Augustine "Seven days by our reckoning, after the model of the days of creation, make up a week. By the passage of such weeks time rolls on, and in these weeks one day is constituted by the course of the sun from its rising to its setting; but we must bear in mind that these days indeed recall the days of creation, but without in any way being really similar to them" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis, 4:27).
St Augustine was in agreement with the best science of his day. The sun went daily around the earth attached to a celestial sphere. A great deal of real learning went into developing that system of astronomy. Continuing that learning process resulted in large increases in understanding of the universe in the past five centuries.The solar system is understood very differently now. That understanding is a part of modern physics which underlies modern technology. This is of course is many centuries after Augustine lived.
Augustine came by his ignorance honestly. You do not.
Curiously enough I hear Augustine supporting my understanding of the inspiration of scripture.
No where in the Bible does it teach that the sun travels around the earth. That was but an assumption contrived by some learned scientists of the day attempting to explain away Biblical miracles. I have never stated that the earth travels around the sun. I do believe that by a miracle God stopped the sun and moon as they appear from the planet earth for Joshua, as God did two similar miracles for Gideon. How God did this, I do not know. I do believe that it happened because God's Holy Word says it happened. Your insults are the kind of Ignorance that I find far worse than most. You believe that knowledge makes you smarter than others and contemptuous of those you disagree with. However, knowledge should humble a person by demonstrating that such knowledge brings with it more questions than answers.
LittleNipper wrote:I do believe that by a miracle God stopped the sun and moon as they appear from the planet earth for Joshua, as God did two similar miracles for Gideon. How God did this, I do not know. I do believe that it happened because God's Holy Word says it happened.
But which version of the Bible is God's Holy Word?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
LittleNipper wrote:I do believe that by a miracle God stopped the sun and moon as they appear from the planet earth for Joshua, as God did two similar miracles for Gideon. How God did this, I do not know. I do believe that it happened because God's Holy Word says it happened.
But which version of the Bible is God's Holy Word?
That would be the Orthodox Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament. And I have heard of unbelievers coming to Christ after reading only Isaiah or John... What do you want from a version but an honest interpretation of the original into a modern vernacular.
Joshua 19:1-51 The tribe of Simeon received the next assignment of land—including part of the land previously assigned to Judah. Their inheritance included these seventeen cities with their respective villages: Beer-sheba, Sheba, Moladah, Hazar-shual, Balah, Ezem, Eltolad, Bethul, Hormah, Ziklag, Beth-marcaboth, Hazar-susah, Beth-lebaoth, Sharuhen, En-rimmon, Ether, and Ashan. The cities as far south as Baalath-beer (also known as Ramah-in-the-Negeb) were also given to the tribe of Simeon. So the Simeon tribe’s inheritance came from what had earlier been given to Judah, for Judah’s section had been too large for them.
The third tribe to receive its assignment of land was Zebulun. Its boundary started on the south side of Sarid. It circled to the west, going near Mareal and Dabbesheth until it reached the brook east of Jokneam. In the opposite direction, the boundary line went east to the border of Chisloth-tabor, and from there to Daberath and Japhia; It continued east of Gath-hepher, Ethkazin, and Rimmon and turned toward Neah. The northern boundary of Zebulun passed Hannathon and ended at the valley of Iphtahel. Additional cities given in these areas included Kattath, Nahalal, Shimron, Idalah, Bethlehem, and each of their surrounding communities. Altogether there were twelve of these cities.
The fourth tribe to be assigned its land was Issachar. Its boundaries included the following cities: Jezreel, Chesulloth, Shunem, Hapharaim, Shion, Anaharath, Rabbith, Kishion, Ebez, Remeth, En-gannim, En-haddah, Beth-pazzez, Tabor, Shahazumah, and Beth-shemesh—sixteen cities in all, each with its surrounding villages. The boundary of Issachar ended at the Jordan River.
The fifth tribe to be assigned its land was Asher. The boundaries included these cities: Helkath, Hali, Beten, Achshaph, Allammelech, Amad, and Mishal. The boundary on the west side went from Carmel to Shihor-libnath, east toward Beth-dagon, and ran as far as Zebulun in the valley of Iphtahel, running north of Beth-emek and Neiel. It passed to the east of Kabul, Ebron, Rehob, Hammon, Kanah, and Greater Sidon. Then the boundary turned toward Ramah and the fortified city of Tyre and came to the Mediterranean Sea at Hosah. The territory also included Mahalab, Achzib, Ummah, Aphek, and Rehob—an overall total of twenty-two cities and their surrounding villages.
The sixth tribe to receive its assignment was the tribe of Naphtali. Its boundary began at Judah, at the oak in Zaanannim, and extended across to Adami-nekeb, Jabneel, and Lakkum, ending at the Jordan River. The western boundary began near Heleph and ran past Aznoth-tabor, then to Hukkok, and bordered the Zebulun boundary in the south, and the boundary of Asher on the west, and the Jordan River at the east. The fortified cities included in this territory were: Ziddim, Zer, Hammath, Rakkath, Chinnereth, Adamah, Ramah, Hazor, Kedesh, Edrei, Enhazor, Yiron, Migdal-el, Horem, Beth-anath, and Beth-shemesh. This territory included nineteen cities with their surrounding villages.
The remaining tribe to be assigned its land was Dan. The cities within its area included: Zorah, Eshtaol, Ir-shemesh, Shaalabbin, Aijalon, Ithlah, Elon, Timnah, Ekron, Eltekeh, Gibbethon, Baalath, Jehud, Bene-berak, Gath-rimmon, Me-jarkon, and Rakkon, also the territory near Joppa. Some of this territory proved impossible to conquer, so the tribe of Dan captured the city of Leshem, slaughtered its people, and lived there; and they called the city “Dan,” naming it after their ancestor.
All the land was split among the tribes, with the boundaries aforementioned. The nation of Israel awarded a special piece of land to Joshua. The Lord had said that he could have any city he wanted. Joshua chose Timnath-serah in the hill country of Ephraim; he rebuilt it and lived there.
Eleazar the priest, Joshua, and the leaders of the tribes of Israel supervised this sacred lottery ---- done in the Lord’s presence at the entrance of the Tabernacle at Shiloh.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And the second lot goeth out for Simeon, for the tribe of the sons of Simeon, for their families; and their inheritance is in the midst of the inheritance of the sons of Judah,
2 and they have in their inheritance Beer-Sheba, and Sheba, and Moladah,
3 and Hazar-Shual, and Balah, and Azem,
4 and Eltolad, and Bethul, and Hormah,
5 and Ziklag, and Beth-Marcaboth, and Hazar-Susah,
6 and Beth-Lebaoth, and Sharuhen; thirteen cities and their villages.
7 Ain, Remmon, and Ether, and Ashan; four cities and their villages;
8 also all the villages which [are] round about these cities, unto Baalath-Beer, Ramoth of the south. This [is] the inheritance of the tribe of the sons of Simeon, for their families;
9 out of the portion of the sons of Judah [is] the inheritance of the sons of Simeon, for the portion of the sons of Judah hath been too much for them, and the sons of Simeon inherit in the midst of their inheritance.
10 And the third lot goeth up for the sons of Zebulun, for their families; and the border of their inheritance is unto Sarid,
11 and their border hath gone up towards the sea, and Maralah, and come against Dabbasheth, and come unto the brook which [is] on the front of Jokneam,
12 and turned back from Sarid eastward, at the sun-rising, by the border of Chisloth-Tabor, and gone out unto Daberath, and gone up to Japhia,
13 and thence it hath passed over eastward, to the east, to Gittah-Hepher, [to] Ittah-Kazin, and gone out [to] Rimmon-Methoar to Neah;
14 and the border hath gone round about it, from the north to Hannathon; and its outgoings have been [in] the valley of Jiphthah-El,
15 and Kattath, and Nahallal, and Shimron, and Idalah, and Beth-Lehem; twelve cities and their villages.
16 This [is] the inheritance of the sons of Zebulun, for their families, these cities and their villages.
17 For Issachar hath the fourth lot gone out, for the sons of Issachar, for their families;
18 and their border is [at] Jezreel, and Chesulloth, and Shunem,
19 and Haphraim, and Shihon, and Anaharath,
20 and Rabbith, and Kishion, and Abez,
21 and Remeth, and En-Gannim, and En-Haddah, and Beth-Pazzez;
22 and the border hath touched against Tabor, and Shahazimah, and Beth-Shemesh, and the outgoings of their border have been [at] the Jordan; sixteen cities and their villages.
23 This [is] the inheritance of the tribe of the sons of Issachar, for their families, the cities and their villages.
24 And the fifth lot goeth out for the tribe of the sons of Asher, for their families;
25 and their border is Helkath, and Hali, and Beten, and Achshaph,
26 and Alammelech, and Amad, and Misheal; and it toucheth against Carmel westward, and against Shihor-Libnath;
27 and hath turned back, at the sun-rising, [to] Beth-Dagon, and come against Zebulun, and against the valley of Jiphthah-El toward the north of Beth-Emek, and Neiel, and hath gone out unto Cabul on the left,
28 and Hebron, and Rehob, and Hammon, and Kanah, unto great Zidon;
29 and the border hath turned back to Ramah, and unto the fenced city Tyre; and the border hath turned back to Hosah, and its outgoings are at the sea, from the coast to Achzib,
30 and Ummah, and Aphek, and Rehob; twenty and two cities and their villages.
31 This [is] the inheritance of the tribe of the sons of Asher, for their families, these cities and their villages.
32 For the sons of Naphtali hath the sixth lot gone out, for the sons of Naphtali, for their families;
33 and their border is from Heleph, from Allon in Zaanannim, and Adami, Nekeb, and Jabneel, unto Lakkum, and its outgoings are [at] the Jordan;
34 and the border hath turned back westward [to] Aznoth-Tabor, and gone out thence to Hukkok, and touched against Zebulun on the south, and against Asher it hath touched on the west, and against Judah [at] the Jordan, at the sun-rising;
35 and the cities of defence [are] Ziddim, Zer, and Hammath, Rakkath, and Chinnereth,
36 and Adamah, and Ramah, and Hazor,
37 and Kedesh, and Edrei, and En-Hazor,
38 and Iron, and Migdal-El, Horem, and Beth-Anath, and Beth-Shemesh; nineteen cities and their villages.
39 This [is] the inheritance of the tribe of the sons of Naphtali, for their families, the cities and their villages.
40 For the tribe of the sons of Dan, for their families, hath the seventh lot gone out;
41 and the border of their inheritance is Zorah, and Eshtaol, and Ir-Shemesh,
42 and Shalabbin, and Aijalon, and Jethlah,
43 and Elon, and Thimnathah, and Ekron,
44 and Eltekeh, and Gibbethon, and Baalath,
45 and Jehud, and Bene-Barak, and Gath-Rimmon,
46 and Me-Jarkon, and Rakkon, with the border over-against Japho.
47 And the border of the sons of Dan goeth out from them, and the sons of Dan go up and fight with Leshem, and capture it, and smite it by the mouth of the sword, and possess it, and dwell in it, and call Leshem, Dan, according to the name of Dan their father.
48 This [is] the inheritance of the tribe of the sons of Dan, for their families, these cities and their villages.
49 And they finish to give the land in inheritance, by its borders, and the sons of Israel give an inheritance to Joshua son of Nun in their midst;
50 by the command of Jehovah they have given to him the city which he asked, Timnath-Serah, in the hill-country of Ephraim, and he buildeth the city and dwelleth in it.
51 These [are] the inheritances which Eleazar the priest, and Joshua son of Nun, and the heads of the fathers of the tribes of the sons of Israel, have caused to inherit by lot, in Shiloh, before Jehovah, at the opening of the tent of meeting; and they finish to apportion the land.
LittleNipper wrote:No where in the Bible does it teach that the sun travels around the earth. That was but an assumption contrived by some learned scientists of the day attempting to explain away Biblical miracles. I have never stated that the earth travels around the sun. I do believe that by a miracle God stopped the sun and moon as they appear from the planet earth for Joshua, as God did two similar miracles for Gideon. How God did this, I do not know. I do believe that it happened because God's Holy Word says it happened. Your insults are the kind of Ignorance that I find far worse than most. You believe that knowledge makes you smarter than others and contemptuous of those you disagree with. However, knowledge should humble a person by demonstrating that such knowledge brings with it more questions than answers.
Nipper, elsewhere you stated, "Do not mistreat, simply correct, beg to disagree, and withhold support."
I have intended nothing but what you recommend in that statement. You posted a link to a web site I found horrific and I said so. That is not an insult to you. Apologist made a list of quotes from web sites I thought similar or worse and said so. I did not say you agreed with them but suggested you be more discriminating in web sites you use for authoritative sources. That is not an insult. In the above quote I state you appear to intentionally choose ignorance of science. That means I do not approve of your choice. It is a statement of disagreement. I do not have any idea of what education, intelligence, or moral character you have.
In fact I have no understanding of you at all. You have insulted me several times on this thread, in fact that is the only sort of reply you have given me. I am capable of grumbling about insults the same as you.
LittleNipper wrote:No where in the Bible does it teach that the sun travels around the earth. That was but an assumption contrived by some learned scientists of the day attempting to explain away Biblical miracles. I have never stated that the earth travels around the sun. I do believe that by a miracle God stopped the sun and moon as they appear from the planet earth for Joshua, as God did two similar miracles for Gideon. How God did this, I do not know. I do believe that it happened because God's Holy Word says it happened. Your insults are the kind of Ignorance that I find far worse than most. You believe that knowledge makes you smarter than others and contemptuous of those you disagree with. However, knowledge should humble a person by demonstrating that such knowledge brings with it more questions than answers.
Nipper, elsewhere you stated, "Do not mistreat, simply correct, beg to disagree, and withhold support."
I have intended nothing but what you recommend in that statement. You posted a link to a web site I found horrific and I said so. That is not an insult to you. Apologist made a list of quotes from web sites I thought similar or worse and said so. I did not say you agreed with them but suggested you be more discriminating in web sites you use for authoritative sources. That is not an insult. In the above quote I state you appear to intentionally choose ignorance of science. That means I do not approve of your choice. It is a statement of disagreement. I do not have any idea of what education, intelligence, or moral character you have.
In fact I have no understanding of you at all. You have insulted me several times on this thread, in fact that is the only sort of reply you have given me. I am capable of grumbling about insults the same as you.
Tell me why you found the website insulting? Give me an example --- perhaps 2 or three. I do not agree with everything on any website (usually). However, I do recognize that possibilities, and various opinions may just hold a key to understanding various things. And Biblical interpretation is one of them. As long as an idea does not outright contradict the Bible, I tend to consider it and think on it. And frankly, I believe that this is exactly what God intended. God is very specific concerning salvation, but there are areas were He only provided just enough information to cause one to search, read, and reread the Bible, and pray. And my feeling is that this is how God speaks to those who come to love Him.
Bazooka wrote:But which version of the Bible is God's Holy Word?
That would be the Orthodox Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament. And I have heard of unbelievers coming to Christ after reading only Isaiah or John... What do you want from a version but an honest interpretation of the original into a modern vernacular.
So you can read Hebrew and Greek?
On what basis have you decided that those versions are the ones God 'wrote' as opposed to some of the other versions?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
LittleNipper wrote: Tell me why you found the website insulting? Give me an example --- perhaps 2 or three. I do not agree with everything on any website (usually). However, I do recognize that possibilities, and various opinions may just hold a key to understanding various things. And Biblical interpretation is one of them. As long as an idea does not outright contradict the Bible, I tend to consider it and think on it. And frankly, I believe that this is exactly what God intended. God is very specific concerning salvation, but there are areas were He only provided just enough information to cause one to search, read, and reread the Bible, and pray. And my feeling is that this is how God speaks to those who come to love Him.
I did not find the website insulting I found it destructive of understanding. You stated yourself that you did not agree with it. I am speaking of "geocentricity"Probably what I liked least on that web site was its use of the device of saying people learned in their beginning astronomy one thing but their advanced astronomy said another. They did not supply the advanced. It was a bluff to confuse the innocent. I consider it that because I have read more than beginning astronomy. I have had a love of science, which though not my life work, has motivated periods of enjoyable learning. I have enjoyed learning how science has discovered and come to understanding of how things work.
I stated earlier in this tread that because God created this world and established the processes of how it works then study of how the universe actually works is a form of honor and worship to God. That does not mean every science idea is correct. They change but change through the kind of learning done with respect for what science learns.
If you really meant that literally, then you are indeed appallingly, willfully and obstinately ignorant. I don't actually think that you believe and know only what is in the Bible. If that were really true, you would be unemployable for anything but unskilled, manual labor (if even that), and would probably not be able to afford the computer you use to access the internet, and would almost certainly not know how to use it or keep it updated even if you had one.
I'm sure that you never attacked and burned a library, but the kind of mindset exemplified by your ignorant statement is precisely what enabled both fanatical Christians and Muslims to justify destroying recorded truths and knowledge they didn't understand or that conflicted with what they would rather believe. It is true that eventually Christians and even Muslims established schools that helped to further literacy, knowledge and progress, but I guarantee that they were not the same type of Christians who ignorantly and arrogantly denied the truth of anything not found in the Bible!
Speaking of Muslims, if you knew your history, you would know that we owe the Muslim Moors of Spain and other Muslim scholars around the same time a great debt of gratitude for preserving much of what was valuable from ancient Greek, Indian and Middle Eastern science and literature during the time that Christian Europe stagnated and even retrogressed during the "Dark Ages." It was the Arabians' invention of algebra and the introduction to Europe of "Arabic numerals" that helped to spark the European Renaissance that led to modern advances in math and science. These Arab scholars also made some of the earliest advances in anatomy, medicine and chemistry that Christian Europe later built upon to create the foundation for modern chemistry and medicine. It is a crying shame that after such a promising start, the Islamic world later became as intolerant of new and independent secular thought as the Christians were during the European Dark Ages!
If humankind believed and knew only what was in the Judeo-Christian Bible, we would still be living the primitive existence endured by the original writers of the books that were eventually compiled into what we now call "The Bible." We would not have the modern benefits of rapid transportation and communication nor the comforts we now enjoy nor the advances of modern medicine that make possible our present, high life expectancy. Without the advances in agriculture, food production, refrigeration and food preservation techniques made since Biblical times, the World would only be able to support a small fraction of its present population.
The painstakingly worked out and discovered scientific theories that inform our present understanding of the size and age of the Universe and how it works, are the same theories that make much of the advanced technology we now rely on so heavily work for us. The simple, undeniable fact that we are able to design and build advanced devices using these theories that then proceed to work as predicted by them is the strongest evidence we can possibly have that those theories are essentially correct. The very computer you are using to access this forum is compelling evidence that modern scientists' understanding of The Universe and how it works is essentially correct. Are these theories incapable of still further improvement as we gain ever more knowledge? Probably not, but it is certain that the additional knowledge needed to further refine them will not come from reading the Bible! Even as they now stand, they are very good indeed! Modern Quantum Theory and General and Special Relativity theories have been experimentally verified to at least a dozen or so decimal places. Because of this, it is simply neither reasonable nor honest for anyone who knows and understands them to doubt what they tell us about the size and age of The Universe. If you think the Bible tells you differently, then either the Bible is in error, or you are misinterpreting what it says. There is simply no other viable alternative.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison