While there are both religiously liberal and religiously conservative unitarians, the name "Unitarian" is most commonly associated with the liberal branch of this theology.
To be clear, I'm specifically referring to the more 'liberal' branch.
Unitarians believe in the moral authority, but not necessarily the divinity, of Jesus.
Based on this, I would say that Unitarianism is a religion. To the extent that they believe that Jesus' teachings should be followed without question, they are potentially dangerous. To the extent that they believe that Jesus' teachings should be subjected to rational scrutiny they are benign. But then, there's not much need for Jesus anymore, is there?
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
Canucklehead wrote: I agree with you that not all religious people are dogmatic in their beliefs. I think that maybe people in this thread are working with different definitions of what constitutes a religion. I agree with JAK that all dogma is dangerous. Therefore, if you define religion as necessarily promoting a particular dogma, then I can see why the conclusion would be reached that all religions are dangerous. Of course, there are degrees of dogma and therefore degrees of danger, as you pointed out from your own experience.
Ok please excuse my ignorance but can a religion exist and operate without dogma and be considered a religion? Pre WWII Shintoism claimed the emperor a God and/or descended from a God. Isn't this dogma? If Shintoism now/currently makes no claim to anything supernatural is it still a religion? (I'm assuming it currently makes no claim to anything supernaturl) I think of religion as requiring beliefs in the supernatural, particular in Gods or a God. If there is no claims to any supernatural, I don't consider it a religion.
I suggest anyone wanting to understand Shintoism do some serious reading -- it's a fascinating religion and shows how this religion shaped the very culture of Japan. It was the Meiji restoration that changed the status of the Emperor -- yet not in a formal dogma. Prior to that time the Emperor wasn't divine (descended and in contact with Kami -- yet not one) and merely was supposed to follow the rituals that would ensure Kami (the spirits) took care of Japan. The Emperor became "divine" (yet not in any official tenets or dogma) under the Meiji restoration. The idea that he was descended from Kami did not translate to political power before the Meiji restoration. The Meiji documents don't refer to the Emperor as divine and so there is no "official dogma" or "tenets" to draw from. This was more done for patriotism than for theological purposes.
Shinto does claim supernatural -- there are millions and millions of spirits -- Kami. These Kami inhabit places, nature, animals, and ancestors.
Shintoism shapes much of the culture -- however only about 1/4 (last I heard) consider themselves religious. Yet, I never, ever entered a home where there was not a Shinto shrine in place. I'm sure there are homes without them -- I never saw one!
Canucklehead wrote: Based on this, I would say that Unitarianism is a religion. To the extent that they believe that Jesus' teachings should be followed without question, they are potentially dangerous. To the extent that they believe that Jesus' teachings should be subjected to rational scrutiny they are benign. But then, there's not much need for Jesus anymore, is there?
Unitarianism Core values:
* support freedom of religious thought * base their religious ideas on rational thought rather than external authority * form their religious principles from conscience, thinking and life's experiences * tolerate a wide range of religious ideas, including humanism
I'd say they're about as dangerous as my local milkman.
As far as having no need for Jesus, well - even I think it's a good idea to follow the (general) teachings of Jesus. And I'm an atheist...!
I think the clarifier here is "Not necessarily following what people try and tell me Jesus 'really meant'"
Last edited by Guest on Wed Feb 20, 2008 11:06 pm, edited 7 times in total.
I know nothing about shintoism so I kept out of this discussion. A Japanese friend of mine once told me it wasn't a religion, but more like an honor system. I can see how that might be true.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
dartagnan wrote:I know nothing about shintoism so I kept out of this discussion. A Japanese friend of mine once told me it wasn't a religion, but more like an honor system. I can see how that might be true.
I think it's a fuzzy for us -- 'cause it is sooo unlike what we consider "religion". Yet there are supernatural beliefs, festivals, shrines, priests, and rituals.
I think the first two definitions are the relevant ones:
re·li·gion –noun 1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
Note that rituals and moral codes are NOT required - only usually or often present.
Also it says 'especially' when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies. Even the supernatural requirement is not specified as 'essential'!
...I would say that's especially relevant given that Buddhism is specifically mentioned in the second definition - and (as far as I understand it - somebody can correct me if they think I'm getting this wrong) some forms of Buddhism don't place any particular emphasis on belief in the supernatural...
This is a festival -- they occur all throughout the year -- some lasting more than a day -- lots of dancing around bonfires in my youth on the beach. :)
A shrine a sacred place -- worship of Kamis, and where Kamis live. People pray there and there are many times through out the year that a parade is taken to the Shrines -- I went to the Shrine and then would hike into the hills and gong a huge bell at midnight for fortune on New Years.
(I snuck into the one by my home a few times with the naughty Japanese boys -- we were never caught:)
The Tori Gate is what you walk through to approach the Shrine (there was one at the end of my street as well as one I could touch at low tide if I ran fast enough -- I usually swam to shore!) and you are purified by washing your hands and mouth out of a trough like thing (can't recall the name of it). You must be "clean" before approaching the Shrine.
RenegadeOfPhunk wrote:Mon, those are some gorgeous pictures!
They're not mine. I definitely need to upload a bunch. So ya'll can see lil Moniker in the festivals and running around like a wild heathen child on the beaches and hills of Japan. :D
I was even in a bunch of the beauty pageants! Those are GREAT pictures -- you can see lil Moniker almost in the picture and the beautiful Japanese ladies (I was standing next to) in the center of the picture -- my Dad took all those. :D
I put the pics on the thread to better define what precisely we're talking about. I like visual aides!! ;)
