The Unreasonableness of Atheism

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_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Mad Viking wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
Mad Viking wrote:The notion of an "atonement" flies in the face of a strict "idea of justice".


Yep, that's why I like it. However if you don't use it you get to face perfect justice. I have no desire to do that.


Are you suggesting that there are varying degrees of jutice?


No, I'm suggesting that justice allows for proxy punishment.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

You missed something Beastie. Those who accept it in the afterlife go to the Terrestrial and don't have to endure a thousand years in hell. Those who want to carry the burden of their own sins get to. It's a simple formula. I don't see what the objection is.

My idea of justice is strict. Do you not think people should be punished for their evil deeds?


Once again. People reject Mormonism because they don't believe in it. Even if there is some afterlife in which LDS missionaries are still trying to convert people, dead people will still reject it if they don't believe in it. Is it "evil" to not be able to believe in something, particularly when that "something" has the baggage Mormonism has? It's like God says "you have to believe in idea X, even though idea X appears ridiculous when judged logically or on empirical evidence, and if you don't, you burn in hell for a thousand years".

You've rejected the EV idea of God, Nehor. What is that concept of God is actually right, and he's going to send you to hell for not believing in the "right" concept of God? Is that justice? Or is it some perverse egomaniac toying with lesser beings and watching them suffer for some twisted purpose?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

EAllusion wrote:
One of the more contemptible and absurd crackpots that Daniel C. Peterson champions is a fellow by the name of Paul Vitz. Chances are you have not heard of him, but he is a minor celebrity among the fundamentalist protestant community that is also into people like Lee Strobel and Josh McDowell. He is famous for arguing that atheism is caused by a metaphysical oedipus complex that results from having defective fathers. You can read a short version of his thesis here: http://www.origins.org/articles/vitz_ps ... heism.html

Learn about the psychology of atheism.


Oh, what a weird piece of work that is. This struck me as odd:
In summary, because of my social needs to assimilate, because of my professional needs to be accepted as part of academic psychology, and because of my personal needs for a convenient lifestyle-for all these needs atheism was simply the best policy. Looking back on these motives, I can honestly say that a return to atheism has all the appeal of a return to adolescence.


So, he's basing his own need to fit in with his losing his religion and saying people just aren't up to belief because it's too trying? Aren't atheists in the minority in America? Aren't atheists stigmatized? No doubt there are enclaves where it is acceptable to be a non-believer, yet, that's certainly not true for many parts of the country and even the world. No doubt wanting to fit into ones social group is a return to a sort of adolescence, yet, what he seemingly doesn't recognize is that the easier route would be to go along with the vast majority of theists in this country.

Then he goes on to state this later:
Very briefly, other famous atheists seem to have had a similar relationship to their fathers. Karl Marx made it clear that he didn't respect his father. An important part in this was that his father converted to Christianity-not out of any religious conviction-but out of a desire to make life easier.


So, is being a believer easier or not? Social pressure there or not?
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

That "research" he did seems meaningless, really, unless he took random atheists and theists and compared father relationships. Wow, that was a real stretch, I think. Then even if there was a correlation between poor relationships to fathers and being an atheist that does nothing to further the notion that atheism is actually unreasonable!
_Mad Viking
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Post by _Mad Viking »

The Nehor wrote:
Mad Viking wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
Mad Viking wrote:The notion of an "atonement" flies in the face of a strict "idea of justice".


Yep, that's why I like it. However if you don't use it you get to face perfect justice. I have no desire to do that.


Are you suggesting that there are varying degrees of jutice?


No, I'm suggesting that justice allows for proxy punishment.


Doesn't justice require that the offender be punished? "Proxy punishment" is something other than "justice". If "proxy punishment" can be called "justice" then the word (justice) ceases to have meaning.

Your idea of justice seems less than "strict" (as you orginally asserted it to be).
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

beastie wrote:
You missed something Beastie. Those who accept it in the afterlife go to the Terrestrial and don't have to endure a thousand years in hell. Those who want to carry the burden of their own sins get to. It's a simple formula. I don't see what the objection is.

My idea of justice is strict. Do you not think people should be punished for their evil deeds?


Once again. People reject Mormonism because they don't believe in it. Even if there is some afterlife in which LDS missionaries are still trying to convert people, dead people will still reject it if they don't believe in it. Is it "evil" to not be able to believe in something, particularly when that "something" has the baggage Mormonism has? It's like God says "you have to believe in idea X, even though idea X appears ridiculous when judged logically or on empirical evidence, and if you don't, you burn in hell for a thousand years".

You've rejected the EV idea of God, Nehor. What is that concept of God is actually right, and he's going to send you to hell for not believing in the "right" concept of God? Is that justice? Or is it some perverse egomaniac toying with lesser beings and watching them suffer for some twisted purpose?


If you judge it's merits solely by the ability to prove or disprove it empirically you've missed the point. If this is a test (and I think it is) then making it rely wholly on evidences one may or may not have access to and reasoning skills one may or may not have would make it an incredibly odd test. Instead, it is based on your receptiveness and willingness to look beyond the natural world and contact God. Thus, the professor at Harvard and the tribesman in Africa are on equal terms.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_antishock8
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Post by _antishock8 »

So, the "test" is you have to believe in nonsensical BS. If you don't believe it, you suffer for a 1,000 years because you failed to allow yourself to be bamboozled.

Holy. crap.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_Mad Viking
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Post by _Mad Viking »

[quote=Nehor]... it is based on your receptiveness and willingness to look beyond the natural world and contact God. Thus, the professor at Harvard and the tribesman in Africa are on equal terms.[/quote]

People tend to find the gods they are looking for.
_The Nehor
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Post by _The Nehor »

Mad Viking wrote:
People tend to find the gods they are looking for.


Then the test would be what kind of God do you want? If you want the right one, you'll find him. Sounds like a good test to me.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_The Nehor
_Emeritus
Posts: 11832
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:05 am

Post by _The Nehor »

antishock8 wrote:So, the "test" is you have to believe in nonsensical b***s***. If you don't believe it, you suffer for a 1,000 years because you failed to allow yourself to be bamboozled.

Holy. s***.


Then again for some hell might feel like coming home.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
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