truth dancer wrote:Are you suggesting Joseph Smith actually DID find lost or hidden objects with his seer stone?
I'm not sure how one would acquire "an established reputation as a gifted seer" (as Marquardt and Walters put it) without ever having anything to show for it. Joseph stated at his 1826 trial that he had "frequently ascertained . . . where lost property was" using his seer stone. And there is at least one account of him doing just that.
"E.W. Vanderhoof remembered that his Dutch grandfather once paid young Smith 75 cents to look into his stone to locate a stolen mare. The grandfather soon 'recovered his beast, which Joe said was somewhere on the lake shore and [was] about to be run over to Canada'" (D. Michael Quinn, Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, 2d ed., 43; Dan Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 4:239-240).
Josiah Stowell testified that Joseph, looking in his stone, was able to describe in detail his house and outbuildings--even describing a tree with a "man's hand" painted on it--without having ever set foot on Stowell's property.
Martin Harris described Joseph using his seer stone to find a tie pin that Harris had accidentally dropped into a pile of straw and wood shavings.
As Dan Vogel observes, "these proofs separate Smith from the group of self-deluded treasure seers, for they were either true demonstrations of his seeric gift or evidence of his talent for deception" (Vogel, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, 43). Since Vogel's worldview does not admit the supernatural, he rejects the former explanation out of hand. I, however, prefer to keep an open mind :)
Why do you privilege Joseph Smith? Why not investigate all the other self-proclaimed psychics and prophets out there? After all, many people believe(d) in them too. Each one also can brag about numerous personal testimonials of believers and/or witnesses.
Maybe you should pray about them too?
What do you think?
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
I think a good analogy to modern times would go like this:
J. Smith era folk magic: Psychic abilities
J. Smith era professional folk magic treasure finder: Telephone psychic
I think grappling with J. Smith's early treasure seeking with his later status as a prophet would not be unlike attempting to reconcile belief in a medium who has claimed to have revealed an ancient religious text from Ethiopia via communication with dead person with the fact that the medium used to be a telephone psychic who specialized in speaking with the dead to reveal lucky lotto numbers.
I think a good analogy to modern times would go like this:
J. Smith era folk magic: Psychic abilities
J. Smith era professional folk magic treasure finder: Telephone psychic
I think grappling with J. Smith's early treasure seeking with his later status as a prophet would not be unlike attempting to reconcile belief in a medium who has claimed to have revealed an ancient religious text from Ethiopia via communication with dead person with the fact that the medium used to be a telephone psychic who specialized in speaking with the dead to reveal lucky lotto numbers.
Let us not forget also that Joseph Smith admitted in court (or in a court proceeding) to not possessing seeric abilities, as per his money seeking activities.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
All men are, "men of their time." Pioneer Leaders might not have all been scoundrels, but they were probably all rough & tough, compared to the smooooth wolves in sheep's clothing that smile and counsel deceptively, and with misinformation today...
"One person's trash is another's treasure." Not everyone swallow/ed/s Mormon bait. Others find it, "a pearl of great price." Ever thus, then and now. naïve and gullible public with personal needs have always been suseptible to persuaison by charming charlatans, who in LDsism are in most cases nor aware of their nefarious doings.
guy sajer wrote:Let us not forget also that Joseph Smith admitted in court (or in a court proceeding) to not possessing seeric abilities, as per his money seeking activities.
No he didn't.
"Smith's defense was that he was a real seer, not a pretended one, and his witnesses, Josiah Stowell and Jonathan Thompson, gave reasons for their belief that he possessed a genuine gift" (Dan Vogel, ed., Early Mormon Documents, 5 vols. [Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1996-2003], 4:244).
truth dancer wrote:Are you suggesting Joseph Smith actually DID find lost or hidden objects with his seer stone?
I'm not sure how one would acquire "an established reputation as a gifted seer" (as Marquardt and Walters put it) without ever having anything to show for it. Joseph stated at his 1826 trial that he had "frequently ascertained . . . where lost property was" using his seer stone. And there is at least one account of him doing just that.
"E.W. Vanderhoof remembered that his Dutch grandfather once paid young Smith 75 cents to look into his stone to locate a stolen mare. The grandfather soon 'recovered his beast, which Joe said was somewhere on the lake shore and [was] about to be run over to Canada'" (D. Michael Quinn, Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, 2d ed., 43; Dan Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 4:239-240).
Josiah Stowell testified that Joseph, looking in his stone, was able to describe in detail his house and outbuildings--even describing a tree with a "man's hand" painted on it--without having ever set foot on Stowell's property.
Martin Harris described Joseph using his seer stone to find a tie pin that Harris had accidentally dropped into a pile of straw and wood shavings.
As Dan Vogel observes, "these proofs separate Smith from the group of self-deluded treasure seers, for they were either true demonstrations of his seeric gift or evidence of his talent for deception" (Vogel, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, 43). Since Vogel's worldview does not admit the supernatural, he rejects the former explanation out of hand. I, however, prefer to keep an open mind :)
If Dan Vogel believes J. Smith had a seeric gift to find things, then he doesn't reject supernatural. I'm not impressed with Vogel's common sense/rational logical ability based upon his participation in the thread on this board dealing with Spalding in which he accepted the Book of Mormon witness statements but rejected the Spalding ones. He may be the nicest person, extremely hard worker, sincere but I don't respect his rational critical thinking ability. I also don't respect yours Nevo. You are great at citing and quoting but in all the years I've read your posts from 2 think.org I noticed your rational thinking or critical thinking was poor on those rare times you actually offered your own thoughts.
marg wrote:If Dan Vogel believes J. Smith had a seeric gift to find things, then he doesn't reject supernatural. I'm not impressed with Vogel's common sense/rational logical ability based upon his participation in the thread on this board dealing with Spalding in which he accepted the Book of Mormon witness statements but rejected the Spalding ones. He may be the nicest person, extremely hard worker, sincere but I don't respect his rational critical thinking ability. I also don't respect yours Nevo. You are great at citing and quoting but in all the years I've read your posts from 2 think.org I noticed your rational thinking or critical thinking was poor on those rare times you actually offered your own thoughts.
Would that I had your common sense and rational logical critical thinking skills, marg. I've so blinded by ignorance and superstition that I had never realized that Dan Vogel actually embraces the supernatural and accepts the Book of Mormon witnesses' statements, and that the Spaulding theory holds water after all. I have so much to learn from you.
Nevo wrote: I've so blinded by ignorance and superstition that I had never realized that Dan Vogel actually embraces the supernatural and accepts the Book of Mormon witnesses' statements, and that the Spaulding theory holds water after all. I have so much to learn from you.
I'm glad you think your sentence makes sense. As far as your poor logical thinking ability Nevo, you've demonstrated it within this thread, quite blatantly. by the way, I never said Vogel embraces the supernatural, but if he's going to talk as if Smith had possible seeric ability of finding things rather than finding anything was a function of chance then he on that issue is accepting the supernatural. If you know differently about his opinion then you should state it.
Marg - Vogel thinks that reports of Smith's success show his talent for deception. You should be able to glean that from the quote, what with your awesome critical thinking skills and all.
This is perhaps extending the analogy too far, but lots of people report the successes of professional psychics, including theirremote viewing talents. I don't know about you or Nevo, but I don't explain this in terms of real psychic powers. My reasoning isn't based on an out-of-hand a priori dismissal, and I don't think that is an accurate an accurate description of my or Vogel's thoughts on Smith's magical stone. I'm certainly open to the possibility, but that doesn't mean I think it is reasonable to conclude Smith had magic powers.