Flip Side of the Coin

[_KevinSim]

His statmentments before quoting from the book or whatever, seemed to have no empathy or understanding of just how damaging the church/families can be ... for example:

I assure you, RockSlider, I've got plenty of empathy, my expressed curiosity notwithstanding. Of the three things that concern me most about the LDS Church, one of them is the way the Church treats gays and lesbians. I'm not going to leave the Church over the way it treats gays and lesbians, but it concerns me nonetheless.

[_Themis]

LOL I see the qualifiers coming out.

The qualifiers are important. If someone asks God a question and isn't prepared to base the whole rest of that someone's life on whatever answer God provides that someone, then why in the world should God give that someone an answer? God is in the business of bringing good to the world; what good would God accomplish by giving the someone an answer s/he isn't going to use? On the other hand, if the someone is prepared to base the whole rest of her/his life on God's answer, then why wouldn't God provide an answer? If we can't know for sure that God would provide an answer, then what can we know for sure about God?

I understand the reasoning behind qualifiers. What I find is that they tend to be an excuse for why the vast majority of the world doesn't get an answer from God or gets what they think is a different answer. I think many LDS don't get an answer even though they are more then willing to follow a God who answers them. Many of them even stay active long after or for the rest of their lives. This is true for other religious groups.

I think it's obvious God is not stopping people from self deception. People are asking God questions all the time yet getting all kinds of different answers. How many say they never got an answer, or that they did but know see it as their own body providing what they thought or were taught to believe was the HG communicating with them.

What is not obvious is whether these people are going to use the answer God provides to bring lasting good into their lives and the lives of those around them.

Again this is an excuse for why the vast majority of the world including many LDS are not getting an answer or are getting a different answer. I don't buy that so many of the world including many good LDS who grew up in the church and were active believing while praying are somehow not willing to to follow God's answer. Then you can add on the scriptures and how inconsistent God is.

YOU have already admitted here as well you are not sure at all but choose to believe.

When have I ever said I am not sure? I have said I have doubts, true enough, but that's not the same thing as saying I am not sure. I can't control my doubts, but I can control what I believe in. If someone were to put a gun to my head and say they would kill me unless I denied the existence of God, I would still be sure there is a God. Does that sound like I'm not sure about the existence of God?

I better help you on this one.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sure

By definition if you are sure you do not have any doubts. Since you say you have and still do have some doubts you are not sure. You like many LDS tend to say you are sure due to cultural conditioning. Perhaps this is why you are confused.

I am sure the same could be said of JW, Scientology, Hinduism, Wicca, etc. Some fo them are much more sure then you are, so why is it you are not the one deceiving yourself given that you admit you don't know and admit you have chosen to believe regardless of any evidence.

Themis, can you explain why you think that Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, Hindus, Wiccans, etc. "are much more sure" than I am? I would be willing to die for my belief; do you really think these people from other faiths are more sure than that?

Some are more sure since they may state they have no doubts. Another-words they are sure, although sure is being used on how they feel. I think your admission of doubts but choosing to believe is being more honest with yourself.

To be honest I have had some times when I've doubted God's existence (and still do to some degree), but I've never let a day end without letting God know that I've committed to believe in Him no matter what happens in the world, and there's nothing that can shake me from that commitment.

Yes I did say this; so what? Doubts are natural; I tend to think even the mentioned JWs and Scientologists have such doubts, though perhaps they don't admit it. As I said, I cannot control my doubts, but I can control what I choose to believe, and I can choose to die for those beliefs, and I have chosen to die for those beliefs. I seriously doubt the mentioned JWs and Scientologists are more sure in their beliefs than I am.

They might, but it really means you haven't had any real definitive answers from god, and at best vague answers. The problem here Is I don't think this would fit your description of what a Good God would do. I would agree with that, which means this good God does not exist.

[_Themis]

Drifting, many of us on this side feel this way. There is simply no evidence you can provide that will ever make us disbelieve in God. We are happy to discuss the topic with you, but if you think you are going to convince us to disbelieve in God - you are deluding yourself.

You may be happy to discuss the topic until the evidence is pulled out. You admit it means nothing here, and you are free to believe what you want. I can find so many others like you that believe something very different. I doubt many young earth creationists will be convinced by any evidence.

[_Themis]

I choose to have faith that the people who really are ready to transform their lives based on God's answer, actually do get an answer from a good God who controls the universe. I don't see anything unreasonable about that belief.

I think what is unreasonable is for the vast majority of the world including LDS are somehow not willing to transform their lives. Many LDS are already living a good LDS lifestyle, and outside the church are already in the ways that count already great people.

[_Tobin]

Drifting, many of us on this side feel this way. There is simply no evidence you can provide that will ever make us disbelieve in God. We are happy to discuss the topic with you, but if you think you are going to convince us to disbelieve in God - you are deluding yourself.

You may be happy to discuss the topic until the evidence is pulled out. You admit it means nothing here, and you are free to believe what you want. I can find so many others like you that believe something very different. I doubt many young earth creationists will be convinced by any evidence.

You have evidence there is no God? Fascinating.

[_Drifting]

I don't believe in the prophet "because of the Book of Mormon"; I believe in the prophet because I asked God if the LDS Church is true and God told me yes.

What do you say to those people, asking the same question in the same way as you did, to whom God replied with a no?

[_Chap]

I am not sure you did, but then it still amounts to the same from your perspective of what you are wanting and choosing to believe in. This is what we call self deception. I will get back to my other post in a couple of days.

It's only deception if the object is false. I will concede that I am willing to gamble everything on the existence of God. Frankly I don't see any danger in making that gamble.

The mere decision to make the statement "A real entity resembling the deity formerly known as Yahweh exists" does not itself carry any significant downside in a modern liberal society.

But of course it does not stop there. If you think this statement entails you having to join an organized religion, the negatives come in.

CoJCoLDS? Ten per cent of your pre-tax income gone for a lifetime.

Roman Catholics? Opposition to making simple and effective measures of birth control available to people in poor countries whose lives would be greatly improved by having fewer children.

And so on. Those are significant and certain negatives that follow from making the commitment to act on the basis that a certain kind of deity exists.

[_ludwigm]

I don't believe in the prophet "because of the Book of Mormon"; I believe in the prophet because I asked God if the LDS Church is true and God told me yes.

What do you say to those people, asking the same question in the same way as you did, to whom God replied with a no?

Or was left without any reply?

[_Elphaba]

What do you say to those people, asking the same question in the same way as you did, to whom God replied with a no?

Or was left without any reply?

In my case, I was left without a reply for over thirty-five years. No reply as a little child, fasting and praying three days a week, begging god for my daddy to stop hurting us, believing with all my heart that god would answer my prayer. As a teenager, still fasting and praying three days a week, begging god for my dad to stop raping me, unsure but desperately hoping God would answer. As a twenty-year-old woman, thinking that my childlike faith had been naïve, that I'd somehow done it wrong, and so begging to know how to ask god to understand faith the right way, and to know what he wanted me to do. As a twenty-five-year old, studying and praying, reading everything I could get my hands on about the Book of Mormon, the Bible, the D&C, begging to know if the Church was really true, feeling for the first time in my life like I understood what it meant, and promising to commit to him, and to the Church, for the rest of my life. As a thirty-year-old, thinking the lack of any sign whatsoever was my fault because I was "begging" for things, and therefore promising God to stop, and to submit to his will, if only he would let me know what that was. Finally, as a thirty-five year old, broken and in agony, begging and begging and begging. For one sign. One feeling. One comfort. One reassurance. One anything.

Nothing. Not once. Ever.

And that's my fault?

[_Chap]

What do you say to those people, asking the same question in the same way as you did, to whom God replied with a no?

Or was left without any reply?

In my case, I was left without a reply for over thirty-five years. No reply as a little child, fasting and praying three days a week, begging god for my daddy to stop hurting us, believing with all my heart that god would answer my prayer. As a teenager, still fasting and praying three days a week, begging god for my dad to stop raping me, unsure but desperately hoping God would answer. As a twenty-year-old woman, thinking that my childlike faith had been naïve, that I'd somehow done it wrong, and so begging to know how to ask god to understand faith the right way, and to know what he wanted me to do. As a twenty-five-year old, studying and praying, reading everything I could get my hands on about the Book of Mormon, the Bible, the D&C, begging to know if the Church was really true, feeling for the first time in my life like I understood what it meant, and promising to commit to him, and to the Church, for the rest of my life. As a thirty-year-old, thinking the lack of any sign whatsoever was my fault because I was "begging" for things, and therefore promising God to stop, and to submit to his will, if only he would let me know what that was. Finally, as a thirty-five year old, broken and in agony, begging and begging and begging. For one sign. One feeling. One comfort. One reassurance. One anything.

Nothing. Not once. Ever.

And that's my fault?

I am so sorry for the failure of us other human beings to offer you the help you needed.

But you seem to have managed somehow to preserve a core of rational self-hood that has not broken down completely under these terrible afflictions. Have you perhaps found a better place in your life now? I do hope so.