The First Plastic First Family

[_Jersey Girl]

Sorry, Jersey Girl. I thought I had read the whole thread but completely missed your post with links. Adding a few seconds of context makes all the difference. If adding that little bit of context can make that much difference, then trying to make sweeping judgments when we know only tiny snippets of their entire relationship seems kind of silly.

My first reaction to that first clip was that it looked like someone thinking "oh, this is a serious occasion, I should look serious."

Never underestimate the power of suggestion and human nature!

I don't consider myself a Democrat or a Republican, though I'm registered as Republican--I'm going to change that. Truly, I consider myself a realist and there's probably a whole slew of folks around her who think otherwise. I don't care what they think.

What I care about is truth, and how to sort through the rubble of media influx and political rhetoric to find it. I've been complaining about media manipulation since the campaign and while these carefully edited videos do not represent the media as a whole, there are tons of citizens who go to youtube, watch a slanted video and take it as gospel because it supports their preconceived notions and biases. Ldsfaqs a case in point.

I am trying as best I can NOT to do that. Not to take whatever I see at face value. I'm trying not to allow bias to rule me. I have this junk come up in my youtube and Facebook feeds on a daily basis. These videos and memes are total crap. There's a meme about that Trump White House arrival, about how he pushed past his wife to walk inside.

Rant: My GOD don't people realize that they're only seeing a small snapshot of an entire event? Don't they realize that there were photographers stationed INSIDE the entry way to photograph him coming in first? As it stands, he went forward under Obama's guidance, likely had his photo taken and then returned to make his entrance with his wife and the Obama's. And the video of Melania's face changing expressions. For god sakes, if that's not a tabloid shot I don't know what a tabloid shot is! When you see the expressions in context of what was going on, you can clearly see that she was expressing appropriate reverence for the clergy and the prayer. If I'm to be honest, it looks like she and others were humoring Trump and would have liked to say, "That's nice, Donald, now turn around and bow your head we're in the middle of a prayer incase you didn't notice!"

This isn't any different than me asking you for the source document about the conveyance of public lands to try to compare it to the assertions in the articles that I posted.

You bet I'm going to be watching carefully how things unfold this year as well we all should. But I am not going to lob everything I can get my hands on, onto the hate Trump pile. I'd like to think that I'm more discerning than that, and again, other folks may think otherwise of me, but I'm going to challenge what I see and what folks here say as well if I think it's predicated on BS.

Another example was the assertion that he's screwing over homeowners because he put a suspension on the loan stuff. Really? Look at this in context. He's the new President just getting his fingers into everything. How do I know he didn't put that on hold until he and his people make an assessment?

Don't mind me, I'm all kinds of irrational and crap.

[_Res Ipsa]

Well, I think it's a great lesson on how confirmation bias works. If someone provides information that is consistent with our beliefs, we just don't think about checking it.

I only watched the clips with the sound turned off so I wouldn't be influenced by the narration. That can make a difference.

In general, I try not to rely on some guy on YouTube. It's too easy to maipulate the viewer.

[_subgenius]

I dunno, Schmo. I don't think I have a basis to conclude that they're kidding themselves, and I know them personally. I'm hesitant to say that I know more about their motivations better than they do.

I'm trying to think of a scenario where you'd go for cosmetic surgery without caring what other people think, and coming up empty. How would the surgery all by itself make someone feel better about themselves? I suppose it's possible in theory, but it makes no sense to me.

oh, well if makes no sense to you....how about this....got a mirror in your house?
why do you have that mirror?
I can't imagine anyone owning or using a mirror just for themselves.....

I've heard that kind of elective surgery is pretty expensive. They'd have to have a pretty strong motivation to go through the hassle, expense, and potential risks involved just to feel a little better about themselves.

yet it is possible that they feel a whole lot better about themselves to...wow, your myopia is staggering

[_Jersey Girl]

Well, I think it's a great lesson on how confirmation bias works. If someone provides information that is consistent with our beliefs, we just don't think about checking it.

I only watched the clips with the sound turned off so I wouldn't be influenced by the narration. That can make a difference.

In general, I try not to rely on some guy on YouTube. It's too easy to maipulate the viewer.

Me either. I don't take anything politicized at face value. If you could only know want my online journey has been you would understand how appalled I am by some of the things I'm seeing on this board with regard to what's going on with Trump. Granted all the players aren't the same, but the treatment of believers is the same.

I came online on a board that was filled with skeptics, for the sole purpose of further investigating Mormonism. Some of us came to call that board an "intellectual meat grinder" and really, that's exactly what it felt like. On a regular basis, I was confronted with skeptics, many or most of them ex-LDS who challenged me to think critically, to look past my own religious bias and compartmentalization. I'm talking about threads the likes of which you hardly ever see here on MDB. 300 post threads or more, that spun off other threads, or when the software wouldn't let you add more than 300 posts, someone would take the topic off into Part 1, 2, etc. On and on, for days on end, sometimes even months on the same topic. Talk about beating it to death. Talk about intense.

I was called irrational, ignorant, stupid, naïve, intellectually dishonest, and a ton of other things. Told I cherry picked and proof texted scripture, and that I wasn't "enlightened". Really, you had to be there the full 8 years to appreciate what the environment was like. But from the very beginning I knew I'd stay there at least for a while. Someone had said "Just another Fundie, she'll be gone in a week and I thought, "Oh yeah?" I became a "regular" when I didn't even know what a regular was. I learned a lot on that board and like it or not, it made me into the poster you all know as Jersey Girl today.

I am a different person today than I was back then on account of my participation there. I think differently, I pick things apart, I challenge. I do it whether it's wanted or not and not just online, but in real life life too. I see an issue or a position and I try to get on the other side of it and see how it holds up when challenged. I don't vote party lines and I don't think in terms of party lines and I don't think in terms of "sides". I think in terms of independent issues. I don't reject something that challenges Christianity, I'm sure as heck not going to hog down everything that challenges my sense of discernment when it comes to a guy like Trump. I'm going to try to find out what's going on, piece by piece, issue by issue.

I have seen the same dynamic play out on this board whenever active LDS come on. I see how they are treated like I was treated only now I'm one of the folks doing the challenging because I think it's good to learn to examine what you think and why you think it. I think it's healthy to open ourselves up to learning more.

So where are the skeptics right now? Is skepticism only useful in terms of religious discussion and debate, and I'm wondering if skeptics are as compartmentalized as I used to be. I'm wondering if skeptics are as hypocritical as I used to be. I'm wondering if it was worth volunteering to let myself get intellectually beat up for years by people who might have been as biased as I was.

Well, I'm still standing.
;-)

[_Xenophon]

I'm trying to think of a scenario where you'd go for cosmetic surgery without caring what other people think, and coming up empty. How would the surgery all by itself make someone feel better about themselves? I suppose it's possible in theory, but it makes no sense to me.

Imagine you had gone your whole life thinking your nose was too big. Every time you look in the mirror you see this big ol' snauz staring back at you. Your family and friends tell you it looks just fine when you question them about it but who knows, maybe they are just being nice. Do you think this person might benefit from shaping their body the way they want? I'm not suggesting that *no* person that gets plastic surgery doesn't do so in order to gain approval from others. But it is typically not all that productive to question the motives of others without a lot of insight into their lives. Remember, just because it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_dysmorphic_disorder

[_Some Schmo]

Imagine you had gone your whole life thinking your nose was too big. Every time you look in the mirror you see this big ol' snauz staring back at you. Your family and friends tell you it looks just fine when you question them about it but who knows, maybe they are just being nice. Do you think this person might benefit from shaping their body the way they want? I'm not suggesting that *no* person that gets plastic surgery doesn't do so in order to gain approval from others. But it is typically not all that productive to question the motives of others without a lot of insight into their lives. Remember, just because it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_dysmorphic_disorder

That's pretty good, Xenophon. I appreciate that.

[_Res Ipsa]

Jersey Girl, the skeptics are still here. They just aren't perfect. It's extremely hard to discard one's cognitive biases even when one knows about them and tries to avoid them. That's why, in my opinion, skepticism is best practiced in groups, just like what you and Gunnar did. Gunnar got fooled by his cognitive biases and you caught it. In my opinion, Gunnar did what skeptics do when you confronted him with evidence -- he said that you were right. That's what skeptics do -- they follow the evidence. Contrast that

Skeptics are human beings. Yes, they can be hypocritical. Yes, they can be compartmentalized. All that makes one a skeptic is a realization that these biases exist and a willingness to try and follow the evidence to conclusions.

[_Xenophon]

That's pretty good, Xenophon. I appreciate that.

My pleasure. Conflict resolution is a huge part of my work and one of the basic principles we practice with people is about reframing perspective. If you can place yourself in others' situations and grant them benefit of the doubt, you can typically avoid misunderstandings. I really appreciated the way you changed your assessment of this thread after Jersey and RI chimed in.

[_Themis]

All of this can be true, absolutely. There are risks to carrying concealed and making a decision to draw and get involved. I've taken classes from experts (former military special forces, law enforcement, etc) they talk about this specifically - what to do after getting involved and how not to get shot by cops. So yes, there are risks, and carrying concealed isn't for everyone. In a nutshell, I'd rather have a choice if ever put in that situation, rather than just being another victim and expecting someone to come save me.

There are more problems then cops mistaking you. Others with guns may also mistake you as the shooter. Others running for their lives may see you with a gun and panic. Maybe even running back towards the real shooter. Best to keep it out of sight and ready if you need it. The other problem is the more people in public who have a concealed weapon the more people who will die each year. I remember Trump suggesting if the people in the night club had been armed this tragedy would not have happened. I would challenge that, but worse, is if we start arming drunk people in night clubs you would see far more people getting shoot each year.

[_Themis]

I'm trying to think of a scenario where you'd go for cosmetic surgery without caring what other people think, and coming up empty. How would the surgery all by itself make someone feel better about themselves? I suppose it's possible in theory, but it makes no sense to me.

Imagine you had gone your whole life thinking your nose was too big. Every time you look in the mirror you see this big ol' snauz staring back at you. Your family and friends tell you it looks just fine when you question them about it but who knows, maybe they are just being nice. Do you think this person might benefit from shaping their body the way they want? I'm not suggesting that *no* person that gets plastic surgery doesn't do so in order to gain approval from others. But it is typically not all that productive to question the motives of others without a lot of insight into their lives. Remember, just because it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_dysmorphic_disorder

Certainly we cannot be sure all the reason people do things, but we usually don't list all those reasons to others. Doing it to look better in other peoples eyes is a common one, and one more likely not to be listed, not wanting to look vain. Very few would ever suggest it, and I have no problem with people wanting to be better looking in the eyes of others.