Mickelson Case: GA coverup cont.,

[_Mary]

If these accusations were being made so publicly and so explicitly against you but you were innocent, what actions would you take? And why hasn't Mickelson taken them?

The original video has been out for 3 years. I would guess either he is hoping people will see Karren as a crazy, bitter, hateful man wanting to destroy a good man's name on a personal vendetta, or...but you are right, if I was being accused of child molestation and I was innocent I would have sued Ron the minute the original video came out. The silence is deafening.

[_Rosebud]

I have not been able to find where Karren talks about Scott getting people together to discredit him. I have seen references to that, but not the actual affidavits or direct accusations.

I read back over Exhibit B and found that the son was over age 18 when he took the aggressive recording from his mother.

(He shames her into speaking using the threat of loss of respect of her children if she does not repetitively, by the way. 18-yo sons generally behave towards their mothers the way their father behaves towards their mother. The divorce did not come out of nowhere.)

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that my first time through Exhibit B I read so quickly I missed the son's assertions that he had recently read the court docs. It looks like he was just 18 and had just been deemed old enough by the court to see them. He was upset by what he had read.

(Again, this discredits Karren's attack against his wife for involving her son. He made a point out discrediting her in his release regarding her question "Why don't you go as my father?" that he thinks is an admission of her father's guilt and that he thinks proves she had hurt her son by involving him. First, he had already involved the son. He may have been the person who got the son the court docs and he is certainly the person who got his son to make the recording. In his recent release, he gets after his wife for doing exactly what he is doing. Second, the son is a legal adult and Karren getting after his wife for victimizing him as if he were a child. These two ideas contradict each other and hardly make sense together when I write them, but they both discredit Karren's reasoning skills and provide evidence that Karren is happy to attack his wife publicly even when it doesn't quite make sense. Since this is true, I have reason to believe he treated his wife this way within her marriage. This supports her assertion that while he was gone on a trip, she realized she needed to do what it took to get away as would align with the experience of many victims of abusive partnerships. Karren claims the divorce was planned from the outside because she left him after 17 years. I'm saying that there's nothing strange about that inside of Mormonism where women are pressured to stay in terrible temple marriages for a long time. There's nothing very strange about it outside of Mormonism either. Some victims of abuse in partnerships will stay married for life. It's often the stronger ones who figure out how to escape. We have no idea what was held over her head while in the marriage. A 17-year marriage isn't proof that it was someone else's fault that she left him. He needs to take responsibility for what he did wrong. The evidence he is providing is that he isn't yet able to do that. He keeps blaming others (just like she says in her petition).)

That was a long parenthetical thought. What I'm trying to get at is that likewise, I am also having a hard time finding anything more than oblique references to Scott's efforts to discredit him. I very easily could have missed more direct information about that issue just like I missed the son's age at the time of his aggressive and shaming recording of his mother. Does anyone know where that information is as I haven't found it?

Also, I understand and agree that these are imperfect people and that child abuse is very important. I am not invested in discrediting Mormin victims and Mormon children are in desperate need of help. That doesn't not also mean these women should be used as a means to an end. That is exactly what abuse victims are used for within Mormonism over and over again. Victims are the means to their perpetrators' ends. That reasoning cannot morally justify Karren's current aggressions towards the women in his life. They have already been victimized enough. He downplays his own child abuse and up-plays theirs. Mormon boys are abused too, and unfortunately abused Mormon boys sometimes grow up to be perpetrators who work to use other victims as their means to an end.

The biggest Mormon mess we've got.

EDITS to fix the mistakes etc. I made while posting from my phone.

[_Mary]

Rosebud, I don't think there is any suggestion whatsoever thay Ron sexually abused any of his kids. If there was, he would never have got primary custody.

He may have been a less than perfect husband and she may have been a less than perfect wife, their relationship was not ideal but I don't think that's the point.

The core issue is his daughter and possibly the childhood abuse of his wife.

[_Rosebud]

Rosebud, I don't think there is any suggestion whatsoever thay Ron sexually abused any of his kids. If there was, he would never have got primary custody.

He may have been a less than perfect husband and she may have been a less than perfect wife, their relationship was not ideal but I don't think that's the point.

The core issue is his daughter and possibly the childhood abuse of his wife.

I have no idea who sexually abused whom and my stance is to continue pointing out that none of us know and ultimately (unless something unforeseen happens), we won't know by the end of this. I am posting because the good I see that can come from this is that people can gain experience with the conundrum we're in as Mormons. The Pace memo reflects a time period and a way of thinking within our history. Whatever the real problem is, the objective is to prevent more abuse, protect the children we can and help adult victims heal. In order to do that, lots of good people need to get a glimpse into what is going on. From my perspective, Karren is offering a moment for many to take that glimpse. Not only is this family a mess, there are lots of other families (GAs or no -- and honestly, I don't give a damn what anyone's silly Mormon rank is) in this same mess. In order to solve the mess, people need to understand it.

My position: anyone could have been/be the perpetrator, all of them could have been/be the perpetrators and a third party we know nothing about could have been/be the perpetrator. At the rate Karren is going within his own capacity to communicate, I don't see a different outcome. He could be spot on about M and now D. He may not be spot on.

My position: listen to and try to understand the victims and what their reports really mean and indicate.

My position: remember that some victims (male and female) grow up to be perpetrators and that this is a multigenerational problem.

I need to focus on other things now.

[Guest]

I've read the last two submissions and I agree with Rosebud -- especially her last sentence. The most recent submissions confirm for me my original concerns about Karren -- I think he's a narcissist and a manipulator. He also appears paranoid and unstable, and it doesn't surprise me in the least that his wife planned in advance a "surprise" divorce. If he were not such a narcissist, he would have seen the distress he was causing his wife and the divorce would not have have been such a "surprise" to him.

His daughter may have been molested as a child. He had a chance to figure that out and get her some help she needed it. But he appears to have been more worried about child protection authorities taking his daughter away than he was about her mental and emotional health. His claims may have been investigated in the divorce, but he hasn't shown us the reports of psychiatrists from the divorce proceeding. Instead, he selectively pulls out evidence and places his own one-sided spin on it.

There is simply no reliable way to tell what went on 14 years ago between the child and the grandfather -- or between the child and any other adult. I don't know -- but I suspect -- that Karren's behavior in all of this has been damaging to his daughter. I hope she is somehow able to get any help she needs and to heal from what sounds to me like a terrible ordeal.

[_Mary]

Rosebud, the affidavits produced at the Scott meeting is the main subject of the son's recorded interview with his mother. The full transcript is now available.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Rosebud, the affidavits produced at the Scott meeting is the main subject of the son's recorded interview with his mother. The full transcript is now available.

Can you post the portion where the mother, under oath, states she was abused as was her daughter?

- Doc

[_kairos]

Not sure if Karren talks or alludes to this, but as I was chasing down a full copy of the Pace report on Wikipedia, there is a note posted saying that the church gave no response to it other than ,here he comes, Elder Scott, speaking in General Conference that repressed memory recovery should be accepted very cautiously especially when, he says, many decades have passed since the alleged abuse. Bells went off for me . If Scott was involved in the Mikkelson family abuse situation you could see how he was laying some groundwork for not putting credence in victims coming forward decades later. Ding! Ding!

If you want to read the Pace report on wiki you have to go to the bottom notes and click on it page by page. basically he has a 5 page report followed by 6 pages of scriptures. he said in the report that he did not want the victims to tell him who the perps were- he interviewed 60 and they together made a huge impression on him as being truthful. but when he could have gone the extra mile and said to each victim- tell me who that son of bitch of a scumbag is who abused you- give his/her name to me and I will get the church and police to take action. sadly he did not so he had no names to report to the church or police. thus I question what kind of company man he was. given he had a cushy job in the presiding bishopric he did not want to
"upset the brethren" and have his career cut short.

just analyzin
k

[_AmyJo]

I thought it very strange that the mother took baths with her daughter, facing each other, up until the daughter reached puberty. And would have her clean herself in just such a way in her private area, that sounds really weird why any parent would do such a thing, unless she was obsessive compulsive or performing some kind of voyeurism by having her daughter do that facing her mom, over and over again.

No rational parent would subject their child to that kind of a 'cleansing,' nor would it be necessary to educate a child how to bathe themselves that way, especially at the age her daughter during the time it was happening.

It was sick, in other words, and a form of sexual abuse in its own right.

Medical Definition of voyeur. : one obtaining sexual gratification from observing unsuspecting individuals who are partly undressed, naked, or engaged in sexual acts; broadly : one who habitually seeks sexual stimulation by visual means.
~ Merriam Webster Dictionary

[_Rosebud]

Rosebud, the affidavits produced at the Scott meeting is the main subject of the son's recorded interview with his mother. The full transcript is now available.

I've read the transcript. I understand that Karren and his son are making accusations and are seeking to gain evidence for their accusations (as in the son's recorded conversation with his mother). I see the recorded conversation between mother and son as evidence that Karren and his son are making accusations and seeking evidence, not as evidence that Scott got people together to produce affidavits. I did not learn anything about the church from that transcript; I llearned about the dysfunction of their family.

I'm looking for the affidavits Scott produced or specific information about their production and corroborating evidence.