Trump to Congresswomen: Go back to your own country!

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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Trump to Congresswomen: Go back to your own country!

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Res Ipsa wrote:Relief Society have always manufactured a bogeyman (well, lately, a bogeywoman) to paint as a threat. It was Pelosi, then Clinton, now the Squad. So, when the Relief Society began targeting the four congresscritters, what should Pelosi have done in your opinion?


I'd suggest the bogeyman is Socialism, and they just put a new face on it when the opportunity presents itself. In this case, they finally have, arguably, Socialists they can point to energize their base. Not only that, they can say, "SEE?!?! WE'VE BEEN TELLING YOU SINCE THE 80'S THE DEMOCRATS WERE ALWAYS SOCIALISTS AND THEY'RE NOW SHOWING THEIR TRUE FACES."

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_EAllusion
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Re: Trump to Congresswomen: Go back to your own country!

Post by _EAllusion »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:Relief Society have always manufactured a bogeyman (well, lately, a bogeywoman) to paint as a threat. It was Pelosi, then Clinton, now the Squad. So, when the Relief Society began targeting the four congresscritters, what should Pelosi have done in your opinion?


I'd suggest the bogeyman is Socialism, and they just put a new face on it when the opportunity presents itself. In this case, they finally have, arguably, Socialists they can point to energize their base. Not only that, they can say, "SEE?!?! WE'VE BEEN TELLING YOU SINCE THE 80'S THE DEMOCRATS WERE ALWAYS SOCIALISTS AND THEY'RE NOW SHOWING THEIR TRUE FACES."

- Doc
Because they've been calling every single major Democrat a socialist since before the 1980's, socialism is becoming increasingly popular. Good job, propagandists. I'm sure that won't have any negative consequences in the future. It has a positive connotation for people under 45. That's what happens when you call Obama a socialist.

The question is does calling the next Democrat up a socialist, whether they are one or not, actually make a difference? That's not clear. The people who care might not coincide with voters you can get that you wouldn't have otherwise.
_honorentheos
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Re: Trump to Congresswomen: Go back to your own country!

Post by _honorentheos »

Res Ipsa wrote:...what should Pelosi have done in your opinion?

I thought Pelosi handled it pretty well. What she said about it should be the narrative being discussed.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_EAllusion
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Re: Trump to Congresswomen: Go back to your own country!

Post by _EAllusion »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
EAllusion wrote:I think part of the reason why is that Democrats in the media significantly overestimate how popular conservative narratives actually are. Their desire to appear fair combined with a thirst for Democratic success causes them to constantly second guess and criticize Democrats for not doing enough to appeal to conservative narratives.


Can you give a few examples of this?

- Doc


I cheekily referred to a quintessential example in the post you quoted. There have been literally hundreds of stories that focus specifically on older, white, working class voters (stereotypically interviewed or photographed in diners) wherein the overarching theme of the interview is a scolding of Democrats to do more to appeal to their conservatively framed interests. This is often written in terms of election strategy. There is no equivalent of this in the reverse direction. When Romney lost, the media didn't produce an avalanche of stories where black women in metro areas were focused on as an all-important bloc of voters that Republicans had lost their way for not doing more to appease by adopting more Democrat-friendly policy or style.

Almost ever single major news story has attached to it mainstream commentators that are not right-wing pundits whose material amounts to Democrats are in trouble for not bending more towards what the conservative position wants. This has occurred with this specific story where Democrats are described as in trouble for criticizing the President too much for racism with the (almost certainly incorrect) belief that focus on the story actually is helpful to Trump.

If you are looking for evidence of my assertion for why this kind of thing happens again and again, there is solid research that indicates that Democratic elites significantly overestimate the level of popular support for conservative positions. That is to say, if you poll them about what they think the public polls on issue X, their answers tend to err by significant margins in favor of the conservative position. There is also significant evidence that journalists are overwhelmingly Democrat on a personal level, but often think that being sympathetic to Republican messaging makes them seem unbiased or more fair. I think this forces conspire to make those journalists want to give advice to Democrats to win, but do so in a way that imports those biases. And so we are treated to a deluge of stories that tell us victory is within the Democrats grasp if only they would do more to appease the conservatives.
_honorentheos
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Re: Trump to Congresswomen: Go back to your own country!

Post by _honorentheos »

canpakes wrote:A truth is just that. A truth. It’s usually pretty well defined, fact-based and specific. There aren’t too many ‘or’ options that go with, say, “unripe tomatoes are green”.

Who is the face of the Democratic party?
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Trump to Congresswomen: Go back to your own country!

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

EAllusion wrote:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Can you give a few examples of this?

- Doc


I cheekily referred to a quintessential example in the post you quoted. There have been literally hundreds of stories that focus specifically on older, white, working class voters (stereotypically interviewed or photographed in diners) wherein the overarching theme of the interview is a scolding of Democrats to do more to appeal to their conservatively framed interests. This is often written in terms of election strategy. There is no equivalent of this in the reverse direction. When Romney lost, the media didn't produce an avalanche of stories where black women in metro areas were focused on as an all-important bloc of voters that Republicans had lost their way for not doing more to appease by adopting more Democrat-friendly policy or style.

Almost ever single major news story has attached to it mainstream commentators that are not right-wing pundits whose material amounts to Democrats are in trouble for not bending more towards what the conservative position wants. This has occurred with this specific story where Democrats are described as in trouble for criticizing the President too much for racism with the (almost certainly incorrect) belief that focus on the story actually is helpful to Trump.

If you are looking for evidence of my assertion for why this kind of thing happens again and again, there is solid research that indicates that Democratic elites significantly overestimate the level of popular support for conservative positions. That is to say, if you poll them about what they think the public polls on issue X, their answers tend to err by significant margins in favor of the conservative position. There is also significant evidence that journalists are overwhelmingly Democrat on a personal level, but often think that being sympathetic to Republican messaging makes them seem unbiased or more fair. I think this forces conspire to make those journalists want to give advice to Democrats to win, but do so in a way that imports those biases. And so we are treated to a deluge of stories that tell us victory is within the Democrats grasp if only they would do more to appease the conservatives.


I'll take that as a 'no' then.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_EAllusion
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Re: Trump to Congresswomen: Go back to your own country!

Post by _EAllusion »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:I'll take that as a 'no' then.

- Doc


I just gave you an example and explained it in detail. Are you saying you are unaware of the voters in diners genre of election coverage?
_EAllusion
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Re: Trump to Congresswomen: Go back to your own country!

Post by _EAllusion »

honorentheos wrote:
canpakes wrote:A truth is just that. A truth. It’s usually pretty well defined, fact-based and specific. There aren’t too many ‘or’ options that go with, say, “unripe tomatoes are green”.

Who is the face of the Democratic party?

No one right now. There are prominent Democrats, but no one Democrat exists as the avatar of the party in people's minds. Whenever they have a nominee for President, that person will take on a figurehead status.
_honorentheos
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Re: Trump to Congresswomen: Go back to your own country!

Post by _honorentheos »

honorentheos wrote:
canpakes wrote:A truth is just that. A truth. It’s usually pretty well defined, fact-based and specific. There aren’t too many ‘or’ options that go with, say, “unripe tomatoes are green”.

Who is the face of the Democratic party?

EAllusion wrote:No one right now. There are prominent Democrats, but no one Democrat exists as the avatar of the party in people's minds. Whenever they have a nominee for President, that person will take on a figurehead status.

So a few "ors" in relation to the question being discussed.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_EAllusion
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Re: Trump to Congresswomen: Go back to your own country!

Post by _EAllusion »

Coincidentally, this was published in the NYT just today:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/18/opin ... -2020.html

The anti-Trump vote is the single largest coalition in American politics. That was true in 2016, despite Hillary Clinton’s defeat in the Electoral College. It was true in 2017, after Democrats won major victories in Virginia and Alabama. And it was true in 2018, when the anti-Trump coalition gave Democrats a majority in the House of Representatives.

Despite their influence, however, anti-Trump voters are practically invisible in recent mainstream political coverage. Instead, the focus is the president’s most fervent supporters, as it has been since 2015, when Trump came down his escalator and announced his campaign for the White House. This past week is a prime example.

On Sunday, as nearly everyone knows by now, Trump launched a racist attack on four progressive congresswomen — Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Ilhan Omar, Rashida Tlaib and Ayanna Pressley — telling them to “go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came” and casting them as un-American on the basis of their racial backgrounds.

Most Americans rejected the president’s outburst. Fifty-nine percent, according to a recent Reuters/Ipsos poll, said it was “un-American,” and 65 percent said it was “racist.” A total of 68 percent said it was “offensive.”

We’ve seen this dynamic before. When the president plays with bigotry — when he defends racist protesters or disparages immigrants from predominantly nonwhite countries or casts migrants as dangerous criminals — he suffers in the polls. But the story in the press wasn’t about Trump’s decision to alienate a broad majority of voters with explicit racism. It was about the devotion of his voters and his strategy for the 2020 election.

Here, for example, was CNN’s take:

Many GOP voters and lawmakers are uncomfortable with Trump’s conduct and sentiments. But most are sufficiently satisfied with the ideological direction of his presidency that they are willing to turn a blind eye to such behavior, making it a useful political weapon as he seeks to drive a rampant base turnout in 2020.

And here was The Associated Press:

Trump, who won the presidency in 2016 in part by energizing disaffected voters with inflammatory racial rhetoric, made clear he has no intention of backing away from that strategy in 2020.

Reuters, reporting on its own poll, emphasized Republican support for the president in the wake of his remarks even as the full results show Trump flailing with independents — just “three in ten” say they approve of the president. Others took for granted that Trump’s racism was effective, all actual evidence notwithstanding.

You could justify this relentless focus on the president’s voters with an analysis of Trump’s victory over Clinton. He won because his strongest supporters were disproportionately in the most valuable swing states. If he can keep them energized, he has a path to re-election. You could even understand the attack on Representative Omar as the first part of a plan to win Minnesota, which nearly flipped for Trump in 2016.

But that’s a bit shallow. Trump rallied his base in the weeks before the 2018 elections using a similar strategy of racist demagogy. He held events in pivotal states like Wisconsin, fanning fear around the migrant “caravan” and blasting figures like congresswoman Maxine Waters of California as representative of the entire Democratic Party. It didn’t work. Not only did Republicans lose the House, but Democrats won important statewide elections in Arizona, Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, and came within a hair’s breadth of winning the governor’s races in Georgia and Florida.

Trump galvanized his supporters at the cost of energizing the opposition. But somehow, this has fallen out of political memory, with many observers focused on the president’s base of non-college-educated whites as the only voters who matter. And that includes some prominent Democrats. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s opposition to serious and aggressive oversight of the president — up to and including impeachment — is arguably tied to a belief in the singular importance of these voters. They must be catered to, even if it angers and disillusions the Democratic base.

But even electoral potency doesn’t work to justify the endless focus on the president’s base, since if it did, you’d have to look at other groups with a similarly major impact on political outcomes.

In a 2018 report sponsored by the Center for American Progress, the Brookings Institution, the Bipartisan Policy Center and the Public Religion Research Institute, the demographers Robert Griffin, Ruy Teixeira and William Frey simulated future election outcomes based on assumptions about voting patterns among demographic groups.

Most demographic and voting changes would produce small swings from 2016. But a few transform the electoral landscape. If Trump were to win an even larger margin of non-college whites — deepening his support with a 10-point swing from his 2016 baseline — he’d have a slight advantage in the popular vote and a comfortable majority in the Electoral College.

The next most potent change is an increase in black turnout and support. African-Americans are the most heavily Democratic group in the country, with a large presence in many of the most competitive states. Small increases in their participation would have an outsize effect on the electoral landscape. The projections bear that out. Given population growth since the last election, if black turnout and support return to 2012 levels, Democrats win handily, with as much as an estimated 338 electoral votes and a five-point margin in the national popular vote.

You could make a strong case that the future success of the Democratic Party depends on its ability to mobilize and win over black Americans, a key group in a broad coalition of voters. We have post-Obama proof that this is true from the 2017 elections — where strong black turnout drove those Democratic victories in Virginia and Alabama — as well as in the 2018 midterms, where greater support and participation from black voters put black candidates within striking distance of statewide victories in Georgia and Florida.

But the press isn’t hyper-solicitous of the views of black voters. Cable news doesn’t constantly turn to swing-state focus groups of black Democrats to gauge their opposition to the president. And Democrats in Congress aren’t worried about demobilizing a group that may determine the next election. Just the opposite — some moderates believe the party has spent too much time challenging the president’s racism and showing solidarity with their nonwhite constituents. As The New York Times reported:

While Democrats were publicly unanimous in their support of the resolution, some moderate lawmakers from Republican-leaning districts that backed Mr. Trump in 2016 privately voiced their discomfort. They said that while the president’s comments had been racist, the party was playing into his hands by spending so much time condemning his remarks, according to centrist lawmakers and senior aides who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe internal discussions.

Conventional wisdom on 2020 is that Democrats will lose if they can’t get their progressive wing under control. This overstates the leftward swing of the Democratic Party and understates the distance between the center of American politics and the president’s right-wing policies. It also misses another, crucial dynamic — that by trying to court and convert voters who backed Trump, Democrats may sacrifice an opportunity to deepen support among their existing voters, to powerful electoral consequences

The press may not have much interest in the broader electorate, but Democratic leaders and strategists, at least, should understand that the anti-Trump coalition is much bigger than the Trump base. If they want to oust the president next November, they should start to take that fact seriously.
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