If plates then God

[MG 2.0]

I think it would make a huge difference in the Plan of Salvation if we didn’t have to exercise real faith.

Oh, you’d still need to exercise plenty of faith. For starters, you’d have questions about the authenticity of the plates.

So you would still question the angel story.

Angel…plates…God

If I’m not mistaken, there has NEVER been another book published from plates as a translation. This is (the Book of Mormon) a new thing in the history of publication.

It seems as though if we had the plates and a Rosetta Stone of sorts and found the translation to be trustworthy, on the whole, that WOULD be a game changer.

Authenticity wouldn’t be an issue.

Then we’re back to my original presentation of faith vs. knowledge and its implications.

A while back I presented the idea of a ‘silver platter god’. This seems to be the kind of god many here would absolutely fall in love with.

Regards,
MG

[Doctor Scratch]

Oh, you’d still need to exercise plenty of faith. For starters, you’d have questions about the authenticity of the plates.

So you would still question the angel story.

Of course I would, and you should too—especially when the organization in question is asking for so much of your money.

[tagriffy]

I'm not sure that it would. I mean, which of the Lord's commandments would you disregard if the plates were still around?

I think it would make a huge difference in the Plan of Salvation if we didn’t have to exercise real faith. The gospel teaches that we are separated from God and the things of eternity by a veil.

If we had access to the plates and the translation was on the shelves of every university and available throughout the world at will…that would put a monkey wrench into this thing we call Faith.

As it is, we are left to choose to believe and obey based upon incomplete information and knowledge.

It’s a bitch, right?

Regards,
MG

ARGH! Even if we had access to the plates and the translation was on the shelves of every university and available throughout the world at will, we would still have to have faith! If the plates were available and shown to be translated accurately, what would that tell us about the statement, "For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things" (2 Ne. 2:11)? Not a damned thing! "An opposition in all things" is an abstract concept that isn't amendable to evidence and indeed is beyond the realm of evidence. One accepts the notion (or not) on faith. And this is just one of many concepts in the Book of Mormon that are beyond the realm of evidence and must be accepted on faith. Having physical plates and showing Lehi won't change that.

[Gadianton]

What is so interesting to me about this is that the actual story of the rock in a hat apparently had to be hidden because it wasn't enough of a story for church leaders to get behind? Or maybe it was simply too close to Smith's previous cons.

that's a good question. I don't have a good answer. There may be more than one gradient, the first gradient is mysticism. The story must be grand and mystical. Another gradient might be familiarity, for lack of a better term.

Mormons are used to recycling their mythology in a certain way and deviations sound "weird". Well, their version is just as weird, they're just familiar with it. Example: On my mission, we used to joke about investigators having misinformation about Mormonism like, "Joseph Smith found the silver plates in a cornfield". And that sounds so silly, no wonder people don't believe it! But finding gold plates in a hill will sound just as silly to an unbiased outsider as finding silver plates in a cornfield. To those whose lives center around the narrative, the narrative, no matter how silly, sounds normal.

Another example: Even the Urim and Thummim is weird to Mormons. We talk about the seers stone -- where did that come from? A river? lame! The Urim and Thummim were included with the plates and have a connection to the Bible. They are like fine and mysterious gems with magical properties carefully handed down from the time of Moses. I was resistant to the seer stone because one would think Joseph Smith was using these precious jewels from the very breastplate of Moroni that came with the plates. The way I envisioned it, Joseph would sit back in his chair at night and carefully hold a gem between his eye and the plates. Somewhat like holding one of those small magnifying glasses to study a gem. this was a dignified visual, for me.

However, one day on my mission, someone gave us an anti-Mormon tract that had a drawing of the Urim and Thummim on the front that looked like big disco glasses with the gems as lenses. This was a serious punch to the gut because I immediately knew they were right: this is the very description from the Pearl of Great Price, I just never had stopped to think about it. So yeah, Joseph sitting there wearing +5 birth control glasses to translate wasn't going to do it for me and so I just let it go to the shelf and didn't think about it again.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

We have the historical record and the narrative surrounding the plates which I have already described and pointed to links that have witness testimony first hand as to the veracity of the plates.

I'm not so sure about that, MG. Can you provide an example of a witness who gave a straightforward account of viewing the plates? I'll see if I can find the thread, but I looked into it a few years ago and posted on the topic -- I was shocked about just how off-the-wall the witness incidents were. Such as, the plates are setting on a kitchen table with a cloth over them, but Joseph Smith didn't just pull the cloth and show them, instead, somehow they all end up in the forest and an angel is revealing them in a vision. (my memory may be fuzzy here)

This is CRUCIALLY important given the argument you're reciting from Bushman.

Remember how I agreed with you and Bushman that the average member needs the reality of the plates and a fictional (the liberal version) Book of Mormon won't do? These same folks are nonplussed when they learn that the witness testimonies aren't straight-forward eye-witness accounts. Stephen Greer directing a UFO 10 feet over his camp would be like Joseph Smith pulling the cloth off that mound of something and lo -- it's gold plates. Stephen Greer leading a group in meditation where everyone spiritually communicates with the aliens is the equivalent of Joseph Smith leading his friends through the forest when the plates are stowed away at home and an angel appears in a vision with the plates.

There is a straightforward account where someone actually ripped that cloth off the "plates" and the ruse was exposed - Joseph Smith then admitted it was a ruse.

So, you have that.

- Doc

[Gadianton]

There is a straightforward account where someone actually ripped that cloth off the "plates" and the ruse was exposed - Joseph Smith then admitted it was a ruse.

So, you have that.

Right, the tile brick. lol.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

There is a straightforward account where someone actually ripped that cloth off the "plates" and the ruse was exposed - Joseph Smith then admitted it was a ruse.

So, you have that.

Right, the tile brick. lol.

[drumdude]

Fall came, and Smith assumed the role of a prophet. He told his family, friends, and believers, that upon a fixed day he was to proceed alone to a spot designated by an angel, and there withdraw from the earth a metallic book of great antiquity,—in short, a hieroglyphic record of the lost tribes and original inhabitants of America. This mystic volume Smith alone could translate, and power was given him as the Divine agent. The expectant revelation was duly advertised, when the prophet, with spade and napkin, repaired to the forest, and at the end of some three hours returned with some object encased in the napkin. The first depository of the sacred plates was under the heavy hearthstone of the Smith cabin. Willard Chase, a carpenter and joiner, was solicited to make a strong chest wherein to keep the golden book in security, but no payment being anticipated, the interview was fruitless. Later a chest was procured, and kept in the garret. Here Smith consulted the volume upon which no other could look and live. William T. Hussy and Ashley Vanduzer, intimates of Smith, resolved to see the book, and were permitted to observe its shape and size under a piece of canvas. Smith refused to uncover it, and Hussey, seizing it, stripped off the cover, and found—a tile-brick. Smith claimed to have sold his visitors by a trick, and treating them to liquor, the matter ended amicably. A huge pair of spectacles were asserted to have been found with the book, and these were the agency by which translation was to be effected. A revelation of a Golden Bible, or Book of Mormon, was announced, and the locality whence the book was claimed to have been taken has since been known, as “Mormon Hill,” and is located in the town of Manchester. Smith described the book “as consisting of metallic leaves or plates resembling gold, bound together in a volume by three rings running through one edge of them, the leaves opening like an ordinary paper book.” Translation began, and the result was shown to ministers and men of education. The “Nephites” and “Lamanites” were outlined as the progenitors of the American aborigines. The Bible was evidently the basis of the work, and portions of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Matthew were almost bodily employed. Smith, being unable to write, sat behind a blanket and evidently read to his scribe, whose name was Oliver Cowdery, who had been a schoolmaster, and wrote at dictation. It was desirable to get this manuscript into print. George Crane, of Macedon, a Quaker, and a man of intelligence, was shown several quires of the “translations.” His opinion was asked and his aid solicited. Mr. Crane advised Smith to give up his scheme, or ruin would result to him, and as is well known, the Friend spoke prophetically.

https://www.mrm.org/wayne-county

[tagriffy]

Fall came, and Smith assumed the role of a prophet. He told his family, friends, and believers, that upon a fixed day he was to proceed alone to a spot designated by an angel, and there withdraw from the earth a metallic book of great antiquity,—in short, a hieroglyphic record of the lost tribes and original inhabitants of America. This mystic volume Smith alone could translate, and power was given him as the Divine agent. The expectant revelation was duly advertised, when the prophet, with spade and napkin, repaired to the forest, and at the end of some three hours returned with some object encased in the napkin. The first depository of the sacred plates was under the heavy hearthstone of the Smith cabin. Willard Chase, a carpenter and joiner, was solicited to make a strong chest wherein to keep the golden book in security, but no payment being anticipated, the interview was fruitless. Later a chest was procured, and kept in the garret. Here Smith consulted the volume upon which no other could look and live. William T. Hussy and Ashley Vanduzer, intimates of Smith, resolved to see the book, and were permitted to observe its shape and size under a piece of canvas. Smith refused to uncover it, and Hussey, seizing it, stripped off the cover, and found—a tile-brick. Smith claimed to have sold his visitors by a trick, and treating them to liquor, the matter ended amicably. A huge pair of spectacles were asserted to have been found with the book, and these were the agency by which translation was to be effected. A revelation of a Golden Bible, or Book of Mormon, was announced, and the locality whence the book was claimed to have been taken has since been known, as “Mormon Hill,” and is located in the town of Manchester. Smith described the book “as consisting of metallic leaves or plates resembling gold, bound together in a volume by three rings running through one edge of them, the leaves opening like an ordinary paper book.” Translation began, and the result was shown to ministers and men of education. The “Nephites” and “Lamanites” were outlined as the progenitors of the American aborigines. The Bible was evidently the basis of the work, and portions of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Matthew were almost bodily employed. Smith, being unable to write, sat behind a blanket and evidently read to his scribe, whose name was Oliver Cowdery, who had been a schoolmaster, and wrote at dictation. It was desirable to get this manuscript into print. George Crane, of Macedon, a Quaker, and a man of intelligence, was shown several quires of the “translations.” His opinion was asked and his aid solicited. Mr. Crane advised Smith to give up his scheme, or ruin would result to him, and as is well known, the Friend spoke prophetically.

https://www.mrm.org/wayne-county

I'm more than a little skeptical of this one. It's a late account, there is no documentation of where McIntosh got the information, apparently no corroboration in contemporary accounts, and it's more than a little too good to be true. We're supposed to believe that Hussy and Vanduzer have information that would literally blow the lid off Joseph's account, but Hurlbut somehow managed to miss them even though he was soliciting derogatory information on Joseph and the Book of Mormon?

[Gadianton]

I'm more than a little skeptical of this one. It's a late account, there is no documentation of where McIntosh got the information, apparently no corroboration in contemporary accounts, and it's more than a little more than too good to be true. We're supposed to believe that Hussy and Vanduzer have information that would literally blow the lid off Joseph's account, but Hurlbut somehow managed to miss them even though he was soliciting derogatory information on Joseph and the Book of Mormon?

A sober perspective, thank you.

What do you think of the witness accounts? Did any of the witnesses claim to see the plates in a natural circumstance? I mean, the plates were right there in the Smith House, right?