Something Troubling in Sunday School

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_schreech
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _schreech »

Blixa wrote:Stem, I'll make this quick since I'm preparing a lecture.

It is often very difficult to understand your posts.

Partly, I think the difficulty is related to the "aw shucks" persona you sometimes affect (and recently seemed to have dropped much of?). Partly, I think it has to do with your reading comprehension; you seem to read things too fast, or in "chunks," or in some other way which misses the boat. And partly, I think it has to do with your often impenetrable writing style. I'm not sure what the problem is on this one: sometimes it seems like you're just writing things really fast and not paying attention (there are often words left out of sentences, for example) and sometimes it seems like you have a great deal of difficulty constructing sentences.

In this thread you have seriously misunderstood consiglieri and also seem to be unaware of the relationship between First Wave Feminism and the Abolition Movement: the comparison of the position of women and slaves is a long used rhetorical trope that has never meant to suggest the two forms of oppression were somehow exactly the same. The American women's rights movement in large part grew out of the anti-slavery societies. The relationship between feminism and anti-racism is a complicated one, however, and beyond the time I have to spare at the moment to detail for you. Suffice it to say, there is a long history behind the metaphor consig and others were referencing here.

You also conflate all historical forms of slavery with the international slave trade which made such an impact on American history. Thus, you present a confused understanding of the relation of race and slavery.

Like I said, I'm pressed for time. I hope you don't think I'm merely condescending to you here, I'm trying sincerely to give you some useful criticism. I have considered doing this for quite some time now, frankly, because I've often been very puzzled by your posts and replies.


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_Darth J
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _Darth J »

stemelbow wrote:
Darth J wrote:Stemelbow---

Are the doctrines, policies, history, and actual behavior of the LDS Church and/or its leaders relevant to the truth claims of the Church and the claims of its leaders to be prophets, seers, and revelators?

Why or why not?


That rabbit-trailin' DJ. Sorry bub, I ain't biting for your own amusement.


That's right, Stemelbow. Jesus is trolling you.

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them.


3 Nephi 14
_just me
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _just me »

MsJack wrote:
consiglieri wrote:Now that we're all part of the same group experience, perhaps we can discuss the comment my friend made about being a woman sitting in a chair with a bunch of men's penises pointed at her head.

Honestly, consiglieri? Under ordinary circumstances, I would find your friend's sentiment vaguely misandrist. Maybe it's just me, but there's something about fixating on the shape of someone's anatomy like that which strikes me as rather ugly and dehumanizing. As if it's not a person anymore, it's a penis. I don't like that.

However, these weren't ordinary circumstances; you said that your friend is a sexual abuse victim. So I think your story helps to illustrate precisely why both genders should be available to perform ordinances. It probably would have been less awkward and uncomfortable for your friend if she could have been surrounded by women instead.


I've always felt comforted by blessing style rituals. I have not experienced sexual abuse. I still think they are a comforting thing....just see no sense in leaving out just over half the population.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_stemelbow
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _stemelbow »

Blixa wrote:Stem, I'll make this quick since I'm preparing a lecture.


Heh…I hate to see what you think is long.

It is often very difficult to understand your posts.


Why of course. Most here are trying to read some nefarious agenda into them, on top of that, I ain’t the best/most skilled writer.

Partly, I think the difficulty is related to the "aw shucks" persona you sometimes affect (and recently seemed to have dropped much of?).


I don’t know what you mean by “aw shucks” persona. I don’t’ believe I’ve ever used that expression.

Partly, I think it has to do with your reading comprehension; you seem to read things too fast, or in "chunks," or in some other way which misses the boat. And partly, I think it has to do with your often impenetrable writing style. I'm not sure what the problem is on this one: sometimes it seems like you're just writing things really fast and not paying attention (there are often words left out of sentences, for example) and sometimes it seems like you have a great deal of difficulty constructing sentences.


Pep pep. I do type up these responses fast. And I do read things fast. I don’t doubt I often err because of that. Thanks for the obvious feedback though. Ppssstt.. I ain’t the only one who suffers from these things.

In this thread you have seriously misunderstood consiglieri and also seem to be unaware of the relationship between First Wave Feminism and the Abolition Movement: the comparison of the position of women and slaves is a long used rhetorical trope that has never meant to suggest the two forms of oppression were somehow exactly the same.


That surely comes off as condescending since I didn’t comment on this at all. But, be that as it may, cool. I can agree to this.

The American women's rights movement in large part grew out of the anti-slavery societies. The relationship between feminism and anti-racism is a complicated one, however, and beyond the time I have to spare at the moment to detail for you. Suffice it to say, there is a long history behind the metaphor consig and others were referencing here.


Cool. Whatever. It really has not bearing on my point, but…

You also conflate all historical forms of slavery with the international slave trade which made such an impact on American history. Thus, you present a confused understanding of the relation of race and slavery.


Nice try. That was Buffalo’s attempt in his rabbit trail with me. Perhaps you have a bit of a reading comprehension yourself.

Like I said, I'm pressed for time. I hope you don't think I'm merely condescending to you here, I'm trying sincerely to give you some useful criticism. I have considered doing this for quite some time now, frankly, because I've often been very puzzled by your posts and replies.


Well, I do appreciate the attempt. I find it only a little useful (I agree I can spend more time typing things up and reading closer, but I already knew that). Anyway, have fun in your lecture. I hope you don’t give them the impression that you will keep it short when in reality your short is the regular joes long-winded. (;
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_why me
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _why me »

consiglieri wrote:


But actually, this brings up another interesting phenomenon in Mormonism. Women are not allowed the Priesthood, and yet the culture often seems to allow for (and even applaud) their dominating men.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri


Again you are missing the boat. The LDS church does not teach that women do not need an education. If fact just the opposite. Women are encouraged to get a good education. And so, I would think that Mormon women are extremely highly educated and certainly not geared for being a stingless jellyfish. Just the opposite. Mormon women are independent and very willed in general. Very few men can use the priesthood card on them and expect to get away with it.

Not having the priesthood does not affect them at all. They, the women, preside in the home and are the guardians of the gate.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_stemelbow
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _stemelbow »

Chap wrote:But the nice thing about stemelbow is that if you say to him something like 'so are you saying X?' he will give you an honest answer. I agree (and so has he on occasion) that he often expresses himself in a quite unnecessarily obscure manner, which is a pity.


Yep...Give me time I'll get better at expressing myself. We all have something to learn.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_just me
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _just me »

why me wrote:I think that you missed the boat on this one. Why is the age limit for women at 21? For one simple reason: to allow them to get married to a return missionary. The male returns at 21. The women can leave at 21. See the point? Eternal marriage Trump's missionary work for young ladies.


That does not make any sense. Age has nothing to do with eternal marriage.
How come a woman can only serve for 18 months and a man has to serve for 2 whole years? That has nothing to do with eternal marriage, either.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_Yoda

Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _Yoda »

Darth J wrote:
liz3564 wrote:Men--How comfortable would you feel confessing a sexual sin to a female bishop?


Image


I'll make sure my Executive Secretary allows a minimum 2 hour block for our appointments. LOL

Geez...we just shot that example all to hell! Image
_MsJack
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _MsJack »

why me wrote:I think that you missed the boat on this one. Why is the age limit for women at 21? For one simple reason: to allow them to get married to a return missionary. The male returns at 21. The women can leave at 21. See the point? Eternal marriage Trump's missionary work for young ladies.

If the church really wants women to marry young, then it seems that giving them the option of going on a mission at age 19 would be best. Then they could get the mission out of the way and start thinking about marriage when they return at age 20 or 21, similar to what the men do.

Gordon B. Hinckley specifically stated that the age is held up for women to reduce the number of women who go. He did not say why the church wants to reduce the number of women who serve. To my knowledge, that's the only kind of official explanation the church has ever given.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_why me
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _why me »

consiglieri wrote:
why me wrote:Okay lets come together in one big prayer group to pray to heavenly father that he would allow women to hold the priesthood. Consig and just me would you both like to lead us in prayer? Lets all ask heavenly father if he can do this for all the women out there in the LDS church who wish to have the priesthood.




Why are you shouting?

I would be honored to lead a prayer with Just Me.

But why do you think we would be praying to Heavenly Father?


All the Best!

--Consiglieri

I am not shouting at all. I am just posting a public announcement. Since consig you are an active member of the church, it is up to you to lead a prayer group asking heavenly father to allow women to hold the priesthood. You still believe that he is the head of the LDS church right?

The exmembers here and the more liberal secular wing of the church on this board seem to forget just who Mormons believe lead the LDS church. Now of course, if aperson believes that it is all man-made well, they can moan about the LDS church and its denial of priesthood for women. But members in good standing can't actually do so unless they want to take the argument to god.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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