Found the truth, what next?

[_Buffalo]

Is this a joke?

Does the phrase "Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power" ring a bell?

No joke! Granted, God does call His power "almighty" many times, if the scriptures quote God accurately (or if, as in this case, Joseph Smith quotes Him accurately).

But Joseph Smith also believed in the general truthfulness of the Bible, which means that Jesus also is as almighty as His Father is. Jesus did indeed do many miraculous things (once again if the scriptures tell the story accurately), but many, many times after performing some miracle, Jesus told His disciples that they also could have done those miracles if they had had enough faith. So the only thing standing between the common man and having the power of God is that common man's faith; if that common man or woman had enough faith, s/he would be as almighty as God.

So once again I assert, I see no reason to believe God is really significantly more powerful than any arbitrary person. I believe God is going to preserve some good things into the eternities, but I think it's quite possible that He may have to overcome some of the same obstacles that afflict us in doing so.

The bottom line is that I think it's building a straw man (a straw God?) to say that God clearly had the power to tell Brigham Young that Young was wrong about his racist opinions, and yet He didn't, and that therefore God could not have inspired the LDS Church.

So, God is "almighty," but not almighty enough to deliver a simple message. Got it.

[_Molok]

Is this a joke?

Does the phrase "Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power" ring a bell?

No joke! Granted, God does call His power "almighty" many times, if the scriptures quote God accurately (or if, as in this case, Joseph Smith quotes Him accurately).

But Joseph Smith also believed in the general truthfulness of the Bible, which means that Jesus also is as almighty as His Father is. Jesus did indeed do many miraculous things (once again if the scriptures tell the story accurately), but many, many times after performing some miracle, Jesus told His disciples that they also could have done those miracles if they had had enough faith. So the only thing standing between the common man and having the power of God is that common man's faith; if that common man or woman had enough faith, s/he would be as almighty as God.

So once again I assert, I see no reason to believe God is really significantly more powerful than any arbitrary person. I believe God is going to preserve some good things into the eternities, but I think it's quite possible that He may have to overcome some of the same obstacles that afflict us in doing so.

The bottom line is that I think it's building a straw man (a straw God?) to say that God clearly had the power to tell Brigham Young that Young was wrong about his racist opinions, and yet He didn't, and that therefore God could not have inspired the LDS Church.

This is why I don't believe in the God of Abraham. Even if he existed, he doesn't have any special power. I could kick his ass in a fist fight. Who wants to worship that? Pathetic. Do yourself a favor, just worship me. You can at least talk to me.

[Guest]

No joke! Granted, God does call His power "almighty" many times, if the scriptures quote God accurately (or if, as in this case, Joseph Smith quotes Him accurately).

But Joseph Smith also believed in the general truthfulness of the Bible, which means that Jesus also is as almighty as His Father is. Jesus did indeed do many miraculous things (once again if the scriptures tell the story accurately), but many, many times after performing some miracle, Jesus told His disciples that they also could have done those miracles if they had had enough faith. So the only thing standing between the common man and having the power of God is that common man's faith; if that common man or woman had enough faith, s/he would be as almighty as God.

So once again I assert, I see no reason to believe God is really significantly more powerful than any arbitrary person. I believe God is going to preserve some good things into the eternities, but I think it's quite possible that He may have to overcome some of the same obstacles that afflict us in doing so.

The bottom line is that I think it's building a straw man (a straw God?) to say that God clearly had the power to tell Brigham Young that Young was wrong about his racist opinions, and yet He didn't, and that therefore God could not have inspired the LDS Church.

So, God is "almighty," but not almighty enough to deliver a simple message. Got it.

LOL How much insanity does he really want to present here. Why not just admit you are wrong and stop the insanity. How can one have a real conversation with someone who makes this kind of crap up just to defend a belief God wasn't the one who ordered the ban. It doesn't even fit with what the church actually teaches about it. This guy would be laughed at in any priesthood meeting. Most might be kind enough to not laugh out loud.

[_sock puppet]

Is this a joke?

Does the phrase "Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power" ring a bell?

No joke! Granted, God does call His power "almighty" many times, if the scriptures quote God accurately (or if, as in this case, Joseph Smith quotes Him accurately).

But Joseph Smith also believed in the general truthfulness of the Bible, which means that Jesus also is as almighty as His Father is. Jesus did indeed do many miraculous things (once again if the scriptures tell the story accurately), but many, many times after performing some miracle, Jesus told His disciples that they also could have done those miracles if they had had enough faith. So the only thing standing between the common man and having the power of God is that common man's faith; if that common man or woman had enough faith, s/he would be as almighty as God.

So once again I assert, I see no reason to believe God is really significantly more powerful than any arbitrary person. I believe God is going to preserve some good things into the eternities, but I think it's quite possible that He may have to overcome some of the same obstacles that afflict us in doing so.

The bottom line is that I think it's building a straw man (a straw God?) to say that God clearly had the power to tell Brigham Young that Young was wrong about his racist opinions, and yet He didn't, and that therefore God could not have inspired the LDS Church.

Kevin, can you simply be declarative and state that god is "almighty"? If Old Testament prophets and JSJr were really talking to the same being, God, and all those prophets wrote down the same descriptor, "almighty", then the word came from God, the speaker, whether audibly into their ears or "inspired" as thoughts into their brains. So why hedge? Almighty means almighty. Fess up.

[_KevinSim]

I am the type who believes in a God/Creator (of all things) very strongly.
I am firmly rooted under the Christian umbrella, believe that Jesus Christ walked this earth, was crucified, and rose again. Although I have been to many places of worship, I can most often be found under the roof of a Catholic church.
(Does that answer your question? ... )

Yes it does.

My next question is, do you believe that God is omnipotent? If you do, does that mean you believe God has the power to cause souls to cease to exist? I understand that most Biblical Christians believe that God created the souls of humanity out of nothing; do you believe that? And if you do, do you believe that God has the power to send souls back to nothing, annihilate them from existence, so that nothing remains, not even something that has the capacity to think?

Finally, do you believe that from some point in time some souls will suffer unbearable agony from that point on forever? I understand that some Christians don't believe that; Thews comes to mind. So do you believe some souls will suffer endlessly like that, or don't you?

[_Ceeboo]

Hi Kevin,

Yes it does.

Good.

My next question is,

How many questions are there gonna be? :)

do you believe that God is omnipotent?

Yes

If you do, does that mean you believe God has the power to cause souls to cease to exist?

9 years of this and have never had that question asked of me.
Ummmmmm? I guess.

I understand that most Biblical Christians believe that God created the souls of humanity out of nothing; do you believe that?

I believe that God created everything, sooooo, I guess that would be a yes.

And if you do, do you believe that God has the power to send souls back to nothing, annihilate them from existence, so that nothing remains, not even something that has the capacity to think?

Another yes, I guess (You're starting to frighten me a tad)

Finally, do you believe that from some point in time some souls will suffer unbearable agony from that point on forever?

No

I understand that some Christians don't believe that; Thews comes to mind. So do you believe some souls will suffer endlessly like that, or don't you?

No

Can I ask you a question?
Do you own a french fry cutter?


Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Ceeboo]

by the way: What happened to the author of this thread?



Peace,
Ceeboo

[_ludwigm]

And if you do, do you believe that God has the power to send souls back to nothing, annihilate them from existence, so that nothing remains, not even something that has the capacity to think?

Another yes, I guess (You're starting to frighten me a tad)

by the way: What happened to the author of this thread?

Peace,
Ceeboo

God with his power to send souls back to nothing, annihilate him from existence, so that nothing was remained, not even something that has the capacity to think.

[_KevinSim]

You made the claim that maybe God would have a hard time communicating, which is not a reasonable argument for someone the church claims created the earth, and that his prophet are who is supposed to communicate hie will to.

Nobody knows how God created planet Earth, if in fact He did create it, which sometimes I doubt. Do you perhaps know somehow that if someone is capable of creating a planet (using whatever means are at that someone's disposal), that that someone must of necessity also be able to communicate everything about that someone's will on all subjects to every person on the planet? If so, how do you know that?

I actually have no idea what the explanation is for why God didn't tell Brigham Young he was wrong before Brigham's death. All I'm saying is that there are explanations for why a non-racist God might have not communicated that to Brigham, which explanations' feasibilities need to be investigated.

This is an old excuse, and a very bad one you can use for ANY belief you want.

The fact that an excuse can be used "for ANY belief" one wants does not in itself mean the excuse is a bad one. The fact is that if God is less than absolutely omnipotent (in the sense that Biblical Christians typically use) then indeed there are so few beliefs about God that can't be defended by this argument, that frankly I don't know what any of them are.

If God really is absolutely omnipotent, in that He can literally do anything (that doesn't involve a logical contradiction), and is absolutely omniscient, in that He knows everything that has ever occurred or will ever occur, and is at the same time absolutely omnibenevolent, then I can say with great confidence that the God described by Biblical Christianity does not exist.

But if in fact there are some things that God cannot do, and if there are some things in the future that God does not know whether they will happen or not, then a deity that is so omnibenevolent that S/He is trying to work for the greater good for all humanity might end up having to do any of a number of bizarre things to accomplish that deity's goals. Quite honestly I don't know how you can know with certainty whether such a deity exists regardless of any observable events in the universe.

So, tell me, Themis, why is it a bad excuse to consider that God may have had a reason for waiting over a century to correct a doctrine in His church, a reason that we don't understand at present, but that God may eventually explain to us?

If you believe in the LDS church, then you believe that BY was God's choice to replace Joseph, and difficulty is just not realistic for someone like God is claimed by the church.

I do "believe that BY was God's choice to replace Joseph"! God saw an opportunity; He knew that the overall good of the human race would be greater if He revealed His plan to Joseph Smith, and He also knew that despite Brigham's failings, any effect that Brigham had wouldn't totally undo the good things accomplished by Joseph; enough of it would be preserved to benefit the human race in the long run.

That does not mean that Brigham was perfect; it just means that Brigham was the best man available at the time, and that humanity would be better off if God established His church during Brigham's predecessor's life than if He attempted to establish it at any other time.

I just realize that I like other members were just deluding ourselves by incorrectly interpreting certain experiences the way the church and many religions want us to. We usually want to as well.

If one wants to delude oneself by asking God a question and then purposefully misinterpreting something as a response, then why should God bother to give us an answer? What good would it do?

On the other hand, if one desperately doesn't want to delude oneself, but asks God a question sincerely wanting to know the will of God whatever that will is, then why wouldn't God answer?

[_Themis]

Nobody knows how God created planet Earth, if in fact He did create it, which sometimes I doubt. Do you perhaps know somehow that if someone is capable of creating a planet (using whatever means are at that someone's disposal), that that someone must of necessity also be able to communicate everything about that someone's will on all subjects to every person on the planet? If so, how do you know that?

I see the craziness continues. This LDS claimed entity has the power to create the earth, sun, etc. This entity also has the power to communicate in numerous ways from talking in a burning bush, dreams, booming voices, and showing up in person or via angels and such. This entity is also claimed to communicate with Joseph countless times. Are you really going to keep suggesting this silly idea that he might have trouble communicating with someone you believe was Joseph successor and God's mouth piece if he wanted to. I God can communicate with others he wants to including some who are not believers in him why then would he have trouble communicating with BY?

I actually have no idea what the explanation is for why God didn't tell Brigham Young he was wrong before Brigham's death. All I'm saying is that there are explanations for why a non-racist God might have not communicated that to Brigham, which explanations' feasibilities need to be investigated.

Given what the church teaches and all the evidence of claimed communication this line of investigation should have taken a fraction of a second to figure out it has no feasible chance.

The fact that an excuse can be used "for ANY belief" one wants does not in itself mean the excuse is a bad one. The fact is that if God is less than absolutely omnipotent (in the sense that Biblical Christians typically use) then indeed there are so few beliefs about God that can't be defended by this argument, that frankly I don't know what any of them are.

It's a bad excuse when it has no evidence and is not even logical.

If God really is absolutely omnipotent, in that He can literally do anything (that doesn't involve a logical contradiction), and is absolutely omniscient, in that He knows everything that has ever occurred or will ever occur, and is at the same time absolutely omnibenevolent, then I can say with great confidence that the God described by Biblical Christianity does not exist.

And yet that is official doctrine of the church. Type it in at LDS.org and see what our religion teaches. Now I know some may not think he is, and there are certainly inconsistencies in LDS doctrine concerning it, but I do not think any would come up with God having trouble communicating with his Prophet.

But if in fact there are some things that God cannot do, and if there are some things in the future that God does not know whether they will happen or not, then a deity that is so omnibenevolent that S/He is trying to work for the greater good for all humanity might end up having to do any of a number of bizarre things to accomplish that deity's goals. Quite honestly I don't know how you can know with certainty whether such a deity exists regardless of any observable events in the universe.

I doubt the Christian God even exists. I was just showing how some of your reasoning was extremely bad.

So, tell me, Themis, why is it a bad excuse to consider that God may have had a reason for waiting over a century to correct a doctrine in His church, a reason that we don't understand at present, but that God may eventually explain to us?

Because it is used as a way around difficult questions, where the best answers do not support what you want to believe.

I do "believe that BY was God's choice to replace Joseph"! God saw an opportunity; He knew that the overall good of the human race would be greater if He revealed His plan to Joseph Smith, and He also knew that despite Brigham's failings, any effect that Brigham had wouldn't totally undo the good things accomplished by Joseph; enough of it would be preserved to benefit the human race in the long run.

I think the evidence both physical and spiritual does not support this, but I see no reason why God could not stop a practice that has caused a lot of damage to the church, and will continue to do so. Again though, the church teaches officially that God was the one who wanted the ban. This is not a good place to be, but way better then saying God couldn't communicate that he didn't want a ban. He did with Peter. Now don't try to compare with the Bible, because I don't think it fairs well for a christian God actually existing. It does make perfect sense that it was just people over thousands of years making it up. The Old Testament God is very jealous and very loyal to the group that created him. hmm

If one wants to delude oneself by asking God a question and then purposefully misinterpreting something as a response, then why should God bother to give us an answer? What good would it do?

Most of the time it is done unintentionally. The spiritual expereince a very subjective and involves the human mind and body. As such one has to interpret the experience, and usually does in favor of what they have been taught or want to believe.

On the other hand, if one desperately doesn't want to delude oneself, but asks God a question sincerely wanting to know the will of God whatever that will is, then why wouldn't God answer?

Because he is probably not there.