Drifting wrote:Sadly the scribes at the time described a tight method of translation where each single word was given in the rock and it wouldn't disappear until correctly wrote down. No room in that for Joseph's contribution.
Maybe it was just 'speculation' ?!
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
Mary wrote: The best apologetic argument I have seen for this, is the idea that Joseph whilst translating was still putting his own interpretation on things according to his own worldview, the scribes may have added to that - Oliver Cowdery etc.
It would mean a slight step back from the view that the Book of Mormon is the 'most perfect' of any book. It is deeply flawed in many ways I think, as is the Bible.
Not saying that is my view, as I think it is a 19th century creation, and not historical, but even with that it still has value for what it is, an insight into the 19th Century mind.
What's worse is this is the best they have. First it doesn't fit with the evidence, and second makes no sense. In the end it is just an apologetic that has nothing except an agenda to defend what is not true.
Mary wrote:The best apologetic argument I have seen for this, is the idea that Joseph whilst translating was still putting his own interpretation on things according to his own worldview, the scribes may have added to that - Oliver Cowdery etc.
It would mean a slight step back from the view that the Book of Mormon is the 'most perfect' of any book. It is deeply flawed in many ways I think, as is the Bible.
Not saying that is my view, as I think it is a 19th century creation, and not historical, but even with that it still has value for what it is, an insight into the 19th Century mind.
I'll add my two cents to this: 1) Some of the racially biased wording in the Book of Mormon comes from the Nephite perspective, so we need to take that into account. 2) And of course the Book of Mormon is a 19th century creation. Apologists are silly to deny that. The question on the table is, was it inspired of God or not? Now, if you are an atheist, the answer is clearly no. However, if you believe in God and believe God can answer you, then ask him. Go with whatever answer God gives you. I think that is all that Mormons ask.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Not saying that is my view, as I think it is a 19th century creation, and not historical, but even with that it still has value for what it is, an insight into the 19th Century mind.
I'll add my two cents to this: 1) Some of the racially biased wording in the Book of Mormon comes from the Nephite perspective, so we need to take that into account. 2) And of course the Book of Mormon is a 19th century creation. Apologists are silly to deny that. The question on the table is, was it inspired of God or not? Now, if you are an atheist, the answer is clearly no. However, if you believe in God and believe God can answer you, then ask him. Go with whatever answer God gives you. I think that is all that Mormons ask.[/quote]
One doesn't have to be an atheist to disbelieve the Book of Mormon. That is the real question underlying all discussions on this board. Whatever your beliefs may be, can the Book of Mormon be believed?
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
Quasimodo wrote:One doesn't have to be an atheist to disbelieve the Book of Mormon. That is the real question underlying all discussions on this board. Whatever your beliefs may be, can the Book of Mormon be believed?
Can the Bible be believed in the same vein? It seems to me that both make improbable and fanciful claims that without God showing up and making them possible would seem to me to be outside our normal experience.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:However, if you believe in God and believe God can answer you, then ask him. Go with whatever answer God gives you. I think that is all that Mormons ask.
Did you ask God about man being able to become a God, and if God was once a man?
Tobin wrote:Can the Bible be believed in the same vein? It seems to me that both make improbable and fanciful claims that without God showing up and making them possible would seem to me to be outside our normal experience.
Put all improbable and fanciful claims aside for the Bible and the Book of Mormon, at least the case for the Bible has a Jerusalem, Jewish DNA, horses, artifacts, written records and on and on. BUT the Book of Mormon has no Zarahemla, Jewish DNA, horses, artifacts, written record.....it has absolutely nothing.
a.k.a. Pokatatorjoined Oct 26, 2006 and permanently banned from MAD Nov 6, 2006
"Stop being such a damned coward and use your real name to own your position."
"That's what he gets for posting in his own name."
2 different threads same day 2 hours apart Yohoo Bat 12/1/2015
Tobin wrote:Can the Bible be believed in the same vein? It seems to me that both make improbable and fanciful claims that without God showing up and making them possible would seem to me to be outside our normal experience.
Put all improbable and fanciful claims aside for the Bible and the Book of Mormon, at least the case for the Bible has a Jerusalem, Jewish DNA, horses, artifacts, written records and on and on. BUT the Book of Mormon has no Zarahemla, Jewish DNA, horses, artifacts, written record.....it has absolutely nothing.
Hmmm, the Book of Mormon mentions Jerusalem too, so it MUST be true then. There were people here when Columbus arrived, remains of advanced civilizations all over, and whoa - they even had a tradition of a white God. Seems as factually based as the Bible to me.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Hmmm, the Book of Mormon mentions Jerusalem too, so it MUST be true then. There were people here when Columbus arrived, remains of advanced civilizations all over, and whoa - they even had a tradition of a white God. Seems as factually based as the Bible to me.
One city is on a map the other is not. A mere mention in a work of fiction does not make it true. Sorry Tobin I guess I need more. I worked the Mormon jig for 36 years. I paid, I prayed, I obeyed and I asked God, God was silent.
a.k.a. Pokatatorjoined Oct 26, 2006 and permanently banned from MAD Nov 6, 2006
"Stop being such a damned coward and use your real name to own your position."
"That's what he gets for posting in his own name."
2 different threads same day 2 hours apart Yohoo Bat 12/1/2015
Tobin wrote:Hmmm, the Book of Mormon mentions Jerusalem too, so it MUST be true then. There were people here when Columbus arrived, remains of advanced civilizations all over, and whoa - they even had a tradition of a white God. Seems as factually based as the Bible to me.
One city is on a map the other is not. A mere mention in a work of fiction does not make it true. Sorry Tobin I guess I need more. I worked the Mormon jig for 36 years. I paid, I prayed, I obeyed and I asked God, God was silent.
I'd suggest you work on that God thing first. Mormonism is impossible to believe in without a God.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
