Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:You know what's difficult and who you should genuinely worry about? The people Jordan Peterson is describing, and can see in real time posting on this thread. That's the real threat to your individual constitutional liberties.
It's not just a real threat to all American's individual constitutional liberties. (As if that alone isn't concerning/troubling enough) - It's a real threat to individualism. Period.
Seeing and opposing racism and bigotry is a fairly obvious position to take.
Of course it's an obvious position to take! It's also a very easy position to take. Someone would have to be a fool to not acknowledge the awful history of racism in America. Most reasonable and rational people can surely agree that slavery and Jim Crow were disgusting evils that rightfully should be forever cemented to the resume of America - If for nothing else, this resume provides all of us with a sobering reminder of these past injustices. But that's not what we are talking about in this thread. (Even with the ridiculous attempts to add things like lynchings to the conversation)
You can't fix past injustices by adding new injustices - That simply doesn't work. In my mind, there is only one path to fix past injustices - and that one path is individual freedom. Period.
Hrm... who was it that recently said, "Vote for me. Don’t vote for the ching-chong!" Who recently has been accused of sexually assaulting two men, keeps a damned keg in her office, and called a detractor a "homo", but still has a job? How about another Democrat caught on tape saying, "Do you have a competitor? You’re the cumma sum laude, I’d say you’re the head nig … no, I can’t say that. All right, we’re out."
Wake me the “F” up when you guys actually care about racism, sexism, and bigotry, otherwise everyone can see straight through your BS.
- Doc
Last edited by Guest on Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
There is a real problem in the country with extreme views from both sides becoming normalized. I agree with Cam on many of his points in the post about racism being more easily recognized than extremist views from the left side of the political spectrum but they are there. The truth is, I suspect most of us on the board would be closer to the middle on this than is immediately apparent, too.
On the one hand, I highly doubt there is a large percentage of board members who don't believe that there are certain ingrained biases that permeate the culture in the US that do not rise to the level of explicit racism or are engaged in with racist intent. When everything from the interest rate one can get on their mortgage to incarceration rates show you're more likely to benefit from being White while being disadvantaged being Black or Hispanic, it's not disputable racial bias influences one's advantages or disadvantages. Acknowledging this is only logical. And the extremes on the right seem to either want to dismiss these are being legitimate concerns, or, at there worse claim they aren't due to bias but due to innate characteristics of people rather than race. That gets ugly quickly, but is recognizable in it's ugliness for most people.
But other than wringing one's hands over it, what exactly does it mean for someone who isn't trying to dismiss it? If I were buying a car and the dealership explicitly told me they were giving me a discounted rate compared to the Hispanic person shopping for the same car just because, I'd complain of the unfairness of the other guy's treatment and expect to see us treated equally even if that meant my rate went up to see his come down. But that's not how it works. The decisions aren't usually being based on overt racism, they're being made based on the person's attempt to make as much money as they can. And they are making judgment calls as to what they think I can afford, what they can do to leverage or sell me on, etc., etc., and racial bias plays a role in that. So do gender biases. So do poverty bias, and whether or not a person is attractive or less so. It seems things get silly when it comes to what to do about it, probably because it isn't simple and we're unlikely to be consistent as individuals. It's not the kind of ethical dilemma that lends itself to easy answers even if easy answers are easy to give.
And that is where I think the extreme left comes into play. There are absolutely people who behave like these things are easy to deal with, the answers are easy and everyone who fails to act in some brilliantly virtuous manner is just this side of being a Nazi. This insistence that the answers are easy and one's actions should appear saintly in their virtue begins to look like a minefield where being White is inherently immoral leaving one to be constantly apologizing for one's privileges and feeling angsty that they aren't righting the wrongs that one can't see because they don't come with SS armbands. Thus, we get the people in the Prager U video. That's not a feasible way to live a healthy and productive life. I doubt any of those people in the video actually do. But I don't doubt they are sincere in their concern with the injustices caused by bias and wanting to do something about it. And that's positive. They just don't have realistic tools because the goals aren't realistic.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:... Take for example the attacks levied at Ceeboo or the Right just on page one:
It would seem that a person who creates a video called, “Do You Have Any Republican Friends” isn’t interested in bridging any divide - he’s interested in widening it.
"Congratulations on being part of the problem”!
These two are mine. The first isn’t addressing Ceeboo, rather it concerns Prager.
I’ll stand behind both comments 100%.
If someone laments an ‘unbridgeable divide’ within politics but produces and promotes hundreds of videos designed to mischaracterize or belittle their ‘opponent’, then they are part of the problem, and they have no interest in bridging any divide. They serve only to widen it.
If another person then posts those same vids on a public message board while making the same claim about an unbridgeable political divide, then refuses to discuss the content or examine any of the possibly damaged or faulty reasoning presented by any of those vids, then that person also becomes part of the problem of the so-called divide.
Stating this much doesn’t cede any ground to arseholes from the fringes of either side. Rather, it’s a challenge issued to reason oneself out of freely walking towards those fringes without consideration for the path one is following.
Ceeboo wrote:Your posts continue to provide 'smoking gun' levels of evidence that crystal clearly support what specific portions of this thread is talking about.
That's quite an indictment, given your laser acuity for identifying evidence.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
Ceeboo wrote:That simply doesn't work. In my mind, there is only one path to fix past injustices - and that one path is individual freedom. Period.
The problem requires acknowledging there is a problem that stems from deep biases. One doesn't overcome bias with freedom, not because freedom is bad but because it's a passive approach to a problem that requires active acknowledgment. I imagine by freedom you mean we should remove artificial attempts to right the injustices in society such as equal opportunity or Title IX and just let people rise according to their own merits. But this approach assumes that people in decision making roles make judgements based primarily on merit. The evidence is clear that biases play huge roles in judgement making. executive order and Title IX are blunt instruments attempting to help create some form of balance but they aren't creating justice. I don't believe justice is achieveable, either.
As to solutions, there aren't easy ones. At the individual level, acknowledging bias and how one is prone to it is the first, last and most important. How one then acts on it, though, it far from easy other than attempt to reassess one's judgements in light of that recognition. But then, we also have this bias regarding how great our own judgements are, so...vicious cycle, that.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:You know what's difficult and who you should genuinely worry about? The people Jordan Peterson is describing, and can see in real time posting on this thread. That's the real threat to your individual constitutional liberties.
It's not just a real threat to all American's individual constitutional liberties. (As if that alone isn't concerning/troubling enough) - It's a real threat to individualism. Period.
...
You can't fix past injustices by adding new injustices - That simply doesn't work. In my mind, there is only one path to fix past injustices - and that one path is individual freedom. Period.
Individual freedom shouldn’t be used as an excuse for any behavior that one wants to exhibit. It implies a responsibility to ourselves and community to act with deliberation, maturity, and for consideration of those around us as well.
Seriously, “no man is an island” shouldn’t need to be reiterated this often.
canpakes wrote:Individual freedom shouldn’t be used as an excuse for any behavior that one wants to exhibit. It implies a responsibility to ourselves and community to act with deliberation, maturity, and for consideration of those around us as well.
Seriously, “no man is an island” shouldn’t need to be reiterated this often.
You may need to be more specific in addressing the context for ceebs' comment. He imagines that if government interference were removed, all judgements would be made based on merit. It dismisses the idea that bias is real and has consequences ranging from insignificant to down right life-changing in devastating ways. There is a Westphalian optimism that stems out of one's dare-I-say-privileged experience extended onto everyone else without reflection.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth? ~ Eiji Yoshikawa
Gunnar wrote:[I don't fear the prospect of Whites like me eventually becoming a minority. Such fear, I believe, is inherently bigoted.
Who's telling you to be afraid of various minorities within context of this thread? I get the revulsion of Trump and Stormfront-y guys. That's easy. But that's not what's going on here.
You know what's difficult and who you should genuinely worry about? The people Jordan Peterson is describing, and can see in real time posting on this thread. That's the real threat to your individual constitutional liberties. Seeing and opposing racism and bigotry is a fairly obvious position to take. What's not obvious is the nefarious game the Leftists are playing that take your natural proclivities of decency and fairness, and then uses them to subjugate you into compliance through shaming tactics, outright bullying, and overt use of the educational and legal systems in the West.
That's ____ terrifying Take for example the attacks levied at Ceeboo or the Right just on page one:
- Doc
Doc, despite some mixed feelings there are areas I agree with you here. The little Peterson clip through Praeger U linked up thread describes a group of people that do exist and I think are a detriment as he describes. I find it difficult to estimate how much influence they have. Peterson himself notes elsewhere that these Neomarxists have influence in University far larger than in the rest of Society. In a sense his direct attack on them is a bit of a test. The hysterical attacks upon him, trying to unperson him are themselves direct evidence of the influence of those he has criticized.
I am not sure but I doubt that anybody posting on this message board actually fits into the category Peterson describes. Still the category underlines the weakness of insulting others with the word racist. Peterson has repeatedly said he is trying to encourage the left of center people to find ways of clarifying the separation between themselves and the radical left. I think, as you have described, the negatives of the radical left have weakened the whole Democratic party.