End goal?

[_amantha]

It is a mistake to assume that there is a difference between "inter-faith" and "extra-faith"? There's a revelation on your mind set.

You too. I would respectfully request that you be a little more picky and choosy about how much material you quote in your replies. Including an entire previous thread in a post when most of it is irrelevant and not being directly responded to, is annoying to the other participants.

Sorry to be a board nanny, but someone's gotta say it.

I had already made the adjustment several posts back, so no need to nanny. And please, let other people decide what is annoying to them rather than speaking for everyone. Just say that it bothers you. That would be appreciated.

[_ludwigm]

Is there similar feelings from people who leave catholic methodist or even islam?

Perhaps not, but it's a definite 'yes' for Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology, 'Moonies' and some others.

And this definite 'yes' makes a little equal sign between JWs, SCs, MOs and the LDS.

[_ozemc]

{ re: JW household vs LDS household} Is the difference here, in your mind, that the JWs really aren't true, but the LDS really are, so of course it's all totally different?

One of my best friends in high school was JW. I had many philosophical disagreements with the theology. This was long before I converted. So no, the difference I see is not based on whether or not we are "true" and they aren't. I came from a family which highly valued education and self-development. The low expectations and limitations of the entire JW theology was not attractive to me. LDS theology emphasizes education and self-development more than any other religion. For that reason alone, your analogy misses the mark.

How very judgemental of you, Charity. Reverse JW and LDS in your paragraph, and maybe you'll get a clue.

In the second place, no one held a gun to your head. You were smart. You could study. You could reason. You made choices. You invested your money and time and you got benefits. Later you changed your mind. So what is the beef?

You're right. I am smart, I studied, I could reason, and I made choices. That process eventually overcame the indoctrination and conditioning of my mind, the shaping of my whole cosmology and worldview, and lead me to some truth about the LDS church, ie: that it's not actually true. And hence I no longer believe.

But you used that intelligence and study and reason to form your cosmology and worldview, in the first place, as LDS. No matter what your early education and training, a part of becoming an independent adult in the teens is examining what you know and think you know and forming your own belief system. This usually occurs late teens. That is what lead to me joining the Church.

My beef is that so many intelligent people whom I know personally are still stuck in this false worldview. Some of them are suffering because of it. I had a long talk with my sister recently, where I came away thinking that she's under a lot of mental stress because she knows there's something wrong with her religious worldview, but the cobwebs are so think, and the cords that bind her mind are so strong, that she's struggling to understand what's going on. She's very smart. She graduated #1 in her class from Yale a few years back and is perhaps less than a year from having her PhD. It's a crying shame that a mind like hers, and her PhD husband's, should be subjected to such false belief systems from the day they're born.

This is one of the big fallacies of the anti-Mormon and ex-mormon rationalization. That if only Person X could think clealry and not be "shackled" with "indoctrination" from their childhood, then they could be"enlightened" like we are. I am living proof that intelligent people can come to the LDS faith with no early teaching, can study and learn and actively CHOSE it.

People also CHOOSE to speed, drink themselves sick, do drugs, commit adultery, and all other self-defeating activities. They are no more or no less intelligent than you are.

Just because someone "choses" to follow a lie does not make it true.

See the recent youtube video of Tom Cruise.

What ticks me off, in a way, is that someone like her is stuck swimming in a manmade mire of false beliefs, mythology, and superstition. Her powerful mind and intellect are literally hobbled by Joseph's Myth. And it shouldn't have to be like that. I see it as a fact of life that so many people in the world (almost everyone, really) are raised in false belief systems which fashion worldviews that render themselves nearly impossible to overcome. But I don't like it. It violates my innate sense of fairness.

This presupposes that your new worldview is correct.

And you presuppose yours is correct. So?

And Charity, please, you were a 19 year old college kid when you converted. You were only an adult in the strictly legalistic sense. They handed you the Cool Aid, and you gulped it down by the gallon. You've given over your heart, soul, and mind, to a mythology. The church isn't true, and you are incapable of seeing that. You never will, because you have chosen not to, and fashioned for yourself over the succeeding decades a worldview which enforces itself at the most basic and fundemental stages of your thought processes, which ensures that you never will. The axioms and values built into your religious and philosophical cosmology prevent you seeing an ounce of truth in what I say, and even as you read these words you've never taken them seriously and you are merely thinking up what your response will be.

Wrong. I considered carefully what you said. I did study philsophy at one time. What I see in your post is the common human hubris. "The way I see things is the only possible way, and if only everyone were as enlightened and smart as I am, they would see it, too."

And by the way, I don't believe that everyone will see the Church as I see it. If we were all to see it the same way there would have been no purpose in mortal existence, beyond gaining a physical body.

However, you do believe that if they don't see it your way, they lack your intelligence, your superior spiritual enlightenment, etc. etc.

It just amazes me that people cannot see in themselves what they see in others.

[_wenglund]

It is a remarkably simple and straightforward question. What's not to understand about it? (It may make it easier for you to understand the question were you to just read the question as is, and not to mistakenly load it up by reading in false presuppositions and motives).

Again, will you be answering the question anytime soon?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't understand simply because the post which you responded to stated nothing about stereotypes. What about my post brought stereotyping to mind?

Actually, you don't need to understand what prompted the question in order to understand the question and directly answer it. But, it is evident that you don't wish to answer the simple and straightforward question. So, never mind. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

I am a somewhat active member of the church. Someone gave a talk about Mormon message boards. Then this whole topic came up at BYU. It seems strange people are so angry. Why are people so angry?

I don't think anger is part of it at all. I don't think quality polemics is conducive of anger.

Is there similar feelings from people who leave catholic methodist or even islam?

I don't think you are correct in attributing anger to people who discuss and debate religion, but I'm sure you wouldn't have any trouble finding a critic of religion who used to be catholic, methodist, or muslim. Ever heard of Salman Rushdie?

And is there an end goal? Do people here want the church to shut down?

I do, but not just the Mormon church. The end goal for me, would to help influence our species in a way that convinces us to stop praising and respecting people for pretending to know things they do not know. That's just the beginning.

You've convinced me. I'll stop praising you. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_amantha]

Actually, you don't need to understand what prompted the question in order to understand the question and directly answer it. But, it is evident that you don't wish to answer the simple and straightforward question. So, never mind. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Okay. But I still don't understand the purpose of the question. I was hoping to get the context wherein your question originated, but apparently you are unwilling to offer your thoughts on this. Asking for clarification and context is a natural part of any question and answer. I suppose my answer was not that important to you anyway. Maybe you had already accomplished your intent with the question. I don't know.

[_Bond...James Bond]

LDS theology emphasizes education and self-development more than any other religion.

Even more than Judaism? :O

[_charity]

{ re: JW household vs LDS household} Is the difference here, in your mind, that the JWs really aren't true, but the LDS really are, so of course it's all totally different?

One of my best friends in high school was JW. I had many philosophical disagreements with the theology. This was long before I converted. So no, the difference I see is not based on whether or not we are "true" and they aren't. I came from a family which highly valued education and self-development. The low expectations and limitations of the entire JW theology was not attractive to me. LDS theology emphasizes education and self-development more than any other religion. For that reason alone, your analogy misses the mark.

How very judgemental of you, Charity. Reverse JW and LDS in your paragraph, and maybe you'll get a clue.

How so? Check out their own information. They discourage college educations. Jehovah Witnesses do not support a unversity system, institutes, or seminaries. They have no Education Weeks, no forum and symposiums. They don't have a Perpetual Education Fund for aid of members in less developed countries. I think that speaks for itself.

My beef is that so many intelligent people whom I know personally are still stuck in this false worldview. Some of them are suffering because of it. I had a long talk with my sister recently, where I came away thinking that she's under a lot of mental stress because she knows there's something wrong with her religious worldview, but the cobwebs are so think, and the cords that bind her mind are so strong, that she's struggling to understand what's going on. She's very smart. She graduated #1 in her class from Yale a few years back and is perhaps less than a year from having her PhD. It's a crying shame that a mind like hers, and her PhD husband's, should be subjected to such false belief systems from the day they're born.

This is one of the big fallacies of the anti-Mormon and ex-mormon rationalization. That if only Person X could think clealry and not be "shackled" with "indoctrination" from their childhood, then they could be"enlightened" like we are. I am living proof that intelligent people can come to the LDS faith with no early teaching, can study and learn and actively CHOSE it.

People also CHOOSE to speed, drink themselves sick, do drugs, commit adultery, and all other self-defeating activities. They are no more or no less intelligent than you are.

Just because someone "choses" to follow a lie does not make it true.

Not, it doesn't. But it makes their own choice and they can't gripe about it later.

And by the way, I don't believe that everyone will see the Church as I see it. If we were all to see it the same way there would have been no purpose in mortal existence, beyond gaining a physical body.

However, you do believe that if they don't see it your way, they lack your intelligence, your superior spiritual enlightenment, etc. etc.

It just amazes me that people cannot see in themselves what they see in others.

You are wrong about me. I don't expect you to have read all my posts and hung on every word I say. But I have said this before. Everyone will make their own choice, and be happy with their choice in the long run. We aren't going to make all the same choice. The Church is for those who make a certain choice and will result in a specfici consequence. That choice and that consequence aren't for every one. I don't see the telestial, terrestrial and celestial kingdoms as good, better, best. They are different.

At one time I was considered a gifted pianist. I could have had a concert career. But the effort and dedication required would have meant that many other options for my life were precluded. I could not have had 6 children and been a stay at home mom. I chose not to pursue a concert career. Instead, I continued to play, peformed at ward activities, was an accompanist for 40 years for ward, stake and regional choirs and for soloists. I was the organist for the first dedicatory session of the Seattle Temple.

So, was I the "telestial" or "terrestrial" level of pianist? Should I have make the choice to be a "celestial" level pianist? Iam completely satisfied with my choice. And if concert career is the "celestial" level, I wouldn't have been happy there.

That's what I think of the different kingdoms. We make the choice we want. We are happy with that choice. Someone who makes a different choice isn't better. They are just different.

[_wenglund]

Actually, you don't need to understand what prompted the question in order to understand the question and directly answer it. But, it is evident that you don't wish to answer the simple and straightforward question. So, never mind. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Okay. But I still don't understand the purpose of the question. I was hoping to get the context wherein your question originated, but apparently you are unwilling to offer your thoughts on this.

I am not sure why you jumped to that false conclusion. I twice deliberately included the context (i.e. your posts) along with my question, and was even chastened by Sethbag for doing so. And, unlike you, I have responded to your questions with simple and straightforward answers, rather than answering them with evasive questions. I have offered my thoughts on this, but recognized that you seemed reluctant to do so, yourself, and thus I determined that there was little value in pursuing things with you.

Asking for clarification and context is a natural part of any question and answer.

I agree--that is, where clarification and context are necessary to understanding the question (which wasn't the case with my simple and straightforward question), and where requests for clarification and context are NOT being used to evade answering the question (which I believe is self evident in your case).

I suppose my answer was not that important to you anyway.

It certainly wasn't important enough to go beyond my three failed attempts to get you to answer my simple and straightforward question, though important enough to warrant making the three attempts.

Maybe you had already accomplished your intent with the question. I don't know.

I agree...you don't know. But, nice talking to ya.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_The Nehor]

LDS theology emphasizes education and self-development more than any other religion.

Even more than Judaism? :O

Can we say we are tied?