A Very Limited Geography

[_stemelbow]

Please Please Please Stem do some research outside of Fair and Farms. If you read the wiki article on the Lemba you will find out that their oral stories about their ancestors only state that males came their to obtain Gold. I find it interesting that they do not find any Mitochondrial DNA from the middle east. Who is really being dishonest here about that issue. Certainly not Murphy.

I understand the prevailing notion to stop your ears and close your eyes to FAIR stuff, but the quote I offered was quoting experts that are not LDS. What was said, which you didn't want to read, was that the Lemba are not differentiated from other Bantu speaking people DNA-wise. It also was clearly describing how any possible connection between the Lemba and simitic peoples would have been a millenium and a half after Lehi's company, after the jewish diaspora. If so, and the argument made in the article, which remains unaddressed, that the post diaspora jews could very well be very different DNA-wise from pre-diaspora peoples in the region, then there is absolutely no reason to blindly accept the Lemba example as anything substantive on this particular topic. Its something quite other, in consideration.

by the way I have consulted other sources outside of FAIR. As it is FAIR poses good work, as far as I can tell, that often uses and references actual scientists and experts. If nothing else, at least the list of references can help this discussion along. other than that, we have nothing else to go on discussion-wise. No two-way discussion, no engaging. Just ad hoc criticisms, many of which have been dealt with in the very link I've provided. Southerton also linked a FAIR piece, which supports my arguments, but not his.

[_Buffalo]

I can only assume because Stem hasn't properly considered the very sources he is pointing to and the degree to which they do not, in fact, contradict anything that Simon has asserted.

From my understanding every expert in the field disagrees with Simon's assumption--that we should be able to find middle eastern, or jewish DNA among the Native Americans if the Book of Mormon story is true. So why do you claim the above? I don't know.

Are you sure you really understand what actual experts are saying? Or are you just parroting FAIR?

[_Buffalo]

I understand the prevailing notion to stop your ears and close your eyes to FAIR stuff,.

FAIR is not a reliable nor credible source. They cannot be trusted to quote others in a responsible manner. They cannot be trusted to let conclusions follow evidence rather than vice versa. They exist for one reason - to defend the church at all costs. That mission alone makes them a non-credible source, even if they didn't have the ethical problems they do.

[_Simon Belmont]

FAIR is not a reliable nor credible source. They cannot be trusted to quote others in a responsible manner. They cannot be trusted to let conclusions follow evidence rather than vice versa. They exist for one reason - to defend the church at all costs. That mission alone makes them a non-credible source, even if they didn't have the ethical problems they do.

Right, but anti-Mormon sources can be trusted.

[_Baker]

Please Please Please Stem do some research outside of Fair and Farms. If you read the wiki article on the Lemba you will find out that their oral stories about their ancestors only state that males came their to obtain Gold. I find it interesting that they do not find any Mitochondrial DNA from the middle east. Who is really being dishonest here about that issue. Certainly not Murphy.

I understand the prevailing notion to stop your ears and close your eyes to FAIR stuff, but the quote I offered was quoting experts that are not LDS. What was said, which you didn't want to read, was that the Lemba are not differentiated from other Bantu speaking people DNA-wise. It also was clearly describing how any possible connection between the Lemba and simitic peoples would have been a millenium and a half after Lehi's company, after the jewish diaspora. If so, and the argument made in the article, which remains unaddressed, that the post diaspora jews could very well be very different DNA-wise from pre-diaspora peoples in the region, then there is absolutely no reason to blindly accept the Lemba example as anything substantive on this particular topic. Its something quite other, in consideration.

by the way I have consulted other sources outside of FAIR. As it is FAIR poses good work, as far as I can tell, that often uses and references actual scientists and experts. If nothing else, at least the list of references can help this discussion along. other than that, we have nothing else to go on discussion-wise. No two-way discussion, no engaging. Just ad hoc criticisms, many of which have been dealt with in the very link I've provided. Southerton also linked a FAIR piece, which supports my arguments, but not his.

Stem - how familiar are you with studies about the genetic origins of the Ashkenazi? When those studies call into question the link back to pre-diaspora Israel, how do you think they do so?

[_Runtu]

As for the Lemba example, I'm not sure what more to say. I've already addressed it in the link I provided:

While he sharply criticizes traditional LDS teachings because of the lack of homology between modern Jewish and Native American mtDNA, Mr. Murphy inexplicably fails to disclose that the Lemba have virtually no mtDNA commonality with other Jewish groups. Dr. Himla Soodyall noted that "using mtDNA the Lemba were indistinguishable from other Bantu-speaking groups."12 Murphy also fails to mention that in contrast to the Lehite colony and the lost ten tribes, which left Israel over two and a half millennia ago, the Lemba are believed be descended from Yemenite Jews who migrated to their current location in Zimbabwe less than a thousand years ago, representing a recent offshoot of post-diaspora Judaism. Yet it is only through the priestly "Cohen Modal Haplotype" that the Lemba have been identified as having a possible Jewish genetic origin at all.

For various reasons the Lemba example doesn't help explain much here.

You do realize there's a huge problem with your source, don't you? The Lemba's traditions say that male Jews came into their tribal areas. Given that fact, can you explain to me the relevance of the following statement?

Mr. Murphy inexplicably fails to disclose that the Lemba have virtually no mtDNA commonality with other Jewish groups. Dr. Himla Soodyall noted that "using mtDNA the Lemba were indistinguishable from other Bantu-speaking groups."

Can you explain to me why you would expect the Lemba to have "mtDNA commonality with other Jewish groups"?

[_Buffalo]

FAIR is not a reliable nor credible source. They cannot be trusted to quote others in a responsible manner. They cannot be trusted to let conclusions follow evidence rather than vice versa. They exist for one reason - to defend the church at all costs. That mission alone makes them a non-credible source, even if they didn't have the ethical problems they do.

Right, but anti-Mormon sources can be trusted.

Some yes, some no. But the science of genetics is solid and reliable, and it disproves the claims made in Book of Mormon.

[_Kishkumen]

Right, but anti-Mormon sources can be trusted.

Simon, would you grow up already?

[_stemelbow]

Stem - how familiar are you with studies about the genetic origins of the Ashkenazi? When those studies call into question the link back to pre-diaspora Israel, how do you think they do so?

Not all that familiar. But here:

Behar and colleagues report: "[T]he Levites, another paternally inherited Jewish caste, display evidence for multiple recent origins, with Ashkenazi Levites having a high frequency of a distinctive, non-Near Eastern haplogroup... the Ashkenazi Levite microsatellite haplotypes within this haplogroup are extremely tightly clustered, with an inferred common ancestor within the past 2,000 years...A founding event, probably involving one or very few European men occurring at a time close to the initial formation and settlement of the Ashkenazi community, is the most likely explanation for the presence of this distinctive haplogroup found today in >50% of Ashkenazi Levites."25 Bradman, Rosengarten, and Skorecki note: "Comparisons of the Ashkenazic Levite dataset with the other groups studied suggest that Y chromosome haplotypes, present at high frequency in Ashkenazic Levites, are most likely to have an east European or west Asian origin and not to have originated in the Middle East."26 David Keys writes that the Ashkenazi "Levite" marker was most likely introduced into the Jewish population with the mass conversion of Turkic Khazars between 700 and 900 AD. 27 DNA studies demonstrating presumably non-Israelite origins of many today's Jews highlight the fallacy of using modern Jewish genetics as a definitive standard against which claims of Israelite ancestry for other groups are assessed.


Summarized fairly nicely huh?

[_Simon Belmont]

Some yes, some no. But the science of genetics is solid and reliable, and it disproves the claims made in Book of Mormon.

Oh, okay. So you dismiss the whole of FAIR with the wave of your hand, but if something agrees with your position you might accept it?