Question for the Atheists.

[_mentalgymnast]

1. Just because the universe seems to be finely tuned by some Physicists' estimations, that is not of itself evidence for or against a god/gods. There are many reasonable hypothesis that still need to be tested, including the multi-verse theory, that suggest an origin for these constants without the intervention of a god. And, even if physics is ultimately unable to answer this question, there is no reason to believe that religion has the answer.

So then I'd guess we would find ourselves in a never ending black hole of thought with no way out and with no answers.

I think we ought to be at least open to the idea that a creator/god responsible for humans on earth has the answers...now. And wants us to know them.

If many of those answers happen to be found within a particular religion, so be it.

Life's too short to wait for the physicists to ultimately be unable to answer the "big" questions and come up with the unified theory of everything...or not.

Regards,
MG

[_citizen28]

I can appreciate that POV, but here's the thing. If there's anything to the fine tuning of the universe, and that a god/creator is involved in that process, it then becomes a real stretch...at that point (if we can get there)...to imagine the creator not being directly involved in what appears to be the most intelligent life in the known universe.

For centuries, humans have been invoking supernatural explanations for phenomena that are not yet well-understood. As we gain information about the laws governing the natural world (by the scientific method), supernatural explanations become less and less necessary and are eventually discarded. To say that God is the first cause of the universe answers no questions and in fact raises quite a few more.

You take issue with, "a God who will reward or punish humankind based on whether or not they obey him."

Well, there's a bit more to the plan of salvation than that somewhat negative slant...

Why do you think it's called, nowadays, the plan of happiness?

As religious influence has waned, the theme of the angry, vengeful God has been deemphasized to couch the message in more humanistic terms (e.g. "the plan of happiness"). I can't remember the last time I heard a verse like Mosiah 2:37-8 repeated over the pulpit, but that theme is repeated over and over in the Book of Mormon. The fact is, religious fear just doesn't sell well in modern times.

[_mentalgymnast]

As religious influence has waned, the theme of the angry, vengeful God has been deemphasized to couch the message in more humanistic terms (e.g. "the plan of happiness"). I can't remember the last time I heard a verse like Mosiah 2:37-8 repeated over the pulpit, but that theme is repeated over and over in the Book of Mormon. The fact is, religious fear just doesn't sell well in modern times.

Mosiah 2: 36,37-8 (tacked on one more verse to those you referred to above)

36 And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom’s paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved—

37 I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples.

38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

This sounds like an evolutionary, almost naturalistic, process occurring over time and into the next life. I don't see a "fear factor" here only in the sense that we have a description of what it's like for those that had and opportunity to hear and accept the gospel but take a different course that leads away from obedience to the commandments, principles and ordinances.

I suppose that could, potentially, strike fear into some that may have any kind of residual/latent belief in the LDS plan of salvation, but I don't know that you and others like yourself really need fear.

Regards,
MG

[_Tchild]

Where did the book come from?

Regards,
MG

Well, according to most sources familiar with the "book". It was dictated by Oliver Cowdery who penned what he heard from Joseph Smith who orated while looking into a hat or thinking from his own mind-brain.

Exactly how every book is written.

[_citizen28]

As religious influence has waned, the theme of the angry, vengeful God has been deemphasized to couch the message in more humanistic terms (e.g. "the plan of happiness"). I can't remember the last time I heard a verse like Mosiah 2:37-8 repeated over the pulpit, but that theme is repeated over and over in the Book of Mormon. The fact is, religious fear just doesn't sell well in modern times.

Mosiah 2: 36,37-8 (tacked on one more verse to those you referred to above)

36 And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom’s paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved—

37 I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples.

38 Therefore if that man repenteth not, and remaineth and dieth an enemy to God, the demands of divine justice do awaken his immortal soul to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which is like an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

This sounds like an evolutionary, almost naturalistic, process occurring over time and into the next life. I don't see a "fear factor" here only in the sense that we have a description of what it's like for those that had and opportunity to hear and accept the gospel but take a different course that leads away from obedience to the commandments, principles and ordinances.

I suppose that could, potentially, strike fear into some that may have any kind of residual/latent belief in the LDS plan of salvation, but I don't know that you and others like yourself really need fear.

Regards,
MG

These verses are an obvious threat to unbelievers (particularly those who once believed). I understand your desire to sweeten the interpretation as much as possible. My point was that it is a clear LDS message that there exists a God who rewards or punishes mankind based on whether or not they obey him. This God has very little to do with the deistic creator God of Einstein and Davies.

I suppose the most practical question isn't whether or not you believe in God, but whether or not your behavior is influenced by fear of his punishment or desire for his reward.

[_Themis]

So then I'd guess we would find ourselves in a never ending black hole of thought with no way out and with no answers.

That does seem to be where you are. :)

I think we ought to be at least open to the idea that a creator/god responsible for humans on earth has the answers...now.

I think you will find atheists the most open. It's just that the evidence is lacking. This means the default should be lack of belief, not belief in something you do not have evidence for. Their are a multitude of these kinds of things, most of which you don't believe in, but you seem to want special status for your beliefs.

And wants us to know them.

Obviously not very much if she is to busy hiding.

If many of those answers happen to be found within a particular religion, so be it.

And how do we know they are the right answers, and not just made up by humans?

Life's too short to wait for the physicists to ultimately be unable to answer the "big" questions and come up with the unified theory of everything...or not.

So therefore lest just make some up. Why should I even care if God exists. Why would I want to associate with a God who is going to punish people simply for going with the evidence, logic, and reason?

[_mentalgymnast]

Where did the book come from?

Regards,
MG

Well, according to most sources familiar with the "book". It was dictated by Oliver Cowdery who penned what he heard from Joseph Smith who orated while looking into a hat or thinking from his own mind-brain.

Exactly how every book is written.

Oliver was the scribe while Joseph dictated.

Oliver Cowdery:

I wrote, with my own pen, the entire Book of
Mormon (save a few pages) as it fell from the lips of
the Prophet Joseph, as he translated it by the gift
and power of God, by the means of the Urim and
Thummim, or as it is called by the book, Holy
Interpreters. I beheld with my eyes, and handled
with my hands, the gold plates from which it was
transcribed. I also saw with my eyes and handled
with my hands the Holy Interpreters. That book is
true. ...It contains the everlasting gospel, and came
forth to the children of men in fulfillment of the
revelations of John, where he says he saw an angel
come with the everlasting gospel to preach to every
nation, kindred, tongue and people. It contains
principles of salvation; and if you, my hearers, will
walk by its light and obey its precepts, you will be
saved with an everlasting salvation in the kingdom
of God on high.

For Joseph to "think from his own mind-brain"...period, as you say, we would have to discount the testimony of witnesses who claim that there were plates involved in the process. If there were plates, there's more going on than Joseph looking into a hat and coming up with something simply from his own mind-brain.

You failed to mention the plates. I'm sure you are aware that Joseph's testimony and the other witnesses proclaim plates as part of the translation process. Things are a bit more complex than your simple statement of supposed fact. You may benefit from listening to the following presentation given at FAIR by DCP dealing with the witnesses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBXYjkkc ... re=related

Three parts.

Good listening. There are some corny jokes at the beginning, so it's not all dry and boring.

There are many people that would say the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and that gold plates were the source material for the translation. Contrary to your off the cuff pronouncement that most sources say Joseph was a con man making stuff up while looking in a hat.

Some sources do, of course, no doubt.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

Why should I even care if God exists.

Because if he does, he may have something worthwhile to share with you, rather than leaving you to your own devices.

Regards,
MG

[_Themis]

Because if he does, he may have something worthwhile to share with you, rather than leaving you to your own devices.

Regards,
MG

The idea is that if God is to busy hiding why should I care if he/she exists. Look I would love it if God exists and would be more then willing to learn whatever it has to share, not what some supposed person who may claim to represent God has to say when the evidence clearly does not support what they say. The five senses have done a better job in telling us about the world then any supposed other sense that has not been established is anything more then our minds and bodies are creating in themselves.

[_malkie]

So then I'd guess we would find ourselves in a never ending black hole of thought with no way out and with no answers.

That does seem to be where you are. :)

I think we ought to be at least open to the idea that a creator/god responsible for humans on earth has the answers...now.

I think you will find atheists the most open. It's just that the evidence is lacking. This means the default should be lack of belief, not belief in something you do not have evidence for. Their are a multitude of these kinds of things, most of which you don't believe in, but you seem to want special status for your beliefs.

And wants us to know them.

Obviously not very much if she is to busy hiding.

If many of those answers happen to be found within a particular religion, so be it.

And how do we know they are the right answers, and not just made up by humans?

Life's too short to wait for the physicists to ultimately be unable to answer the "big" questions and come up with the unified theory of everything...or not.

So therefore lest just make some up. Why should I even care if God exists. Why would I want to associate with a God who is going to punish people simply for going with the evidence, logic, and reason?

Hey, MG, do you accept the idea that, for ANY truth claim, the rational default position is lack of belief?