Science is a tool that can be abused!

The upper-crust forum for scholarly, polite, and respectful discussions only. Heavily moderated. Rated G.
Post Reply
_spotlight
_Emeritus
Posts: 1702
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _spotlight »

The CCC wrote:Over-specificity. No upper age limit. Polygamy wasn't an option in the US. Bigot.

Then you acknowledge Joseph Smith was breaking the law of the land. Even if it was legal he wouldn't have taken care of his wives, he didn't have the means. Oh yeah, time for another revelation right? "Let a house be built for my servant Joseph and all of his wives..."

And that's bigfoot, not bigot. See the story of David W Patten in The Miracle of Forgiveness -Spencer Kimbald
"Nice" of you to call me Cain. :lol:
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_The CCC
_Emeritus
Posts: 6746
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:51 am

Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _The CCC »

spotlight wrote:
The CCC wrote:Over-specificity. No upper age limit. Polygamy wasn't an option in the US. Bigot.

Then you acknowledge Joseph Smith was breaking the law of the land. Even if it was legal he wouldn't have taken care of his wives, he didn't have the means. Oh yeah, time for another revelation right? "Let a house be built for my servant Joseph and all of his wives..."

And that's bigfoot, not bigot. See the story of David W Patten in The Miracle of Forgiveness -Spencer Kimbald
"Nice" of you to call me Cain. :lol:


In Nauvoo was an unsettled legal question of the time. I'm not saying that Joseph Smith was married to more than one woman at a time. A Sealing in the LDS context is not marriage.

I can't find that quote. Please provide a reference.

The Miracle of Forgiveness isn't part of LDS Theology
_spotlight
_Emeritus
Posts: 1702
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _spotlight »

CCC wrote:The Miracle of Forgiveness isn't part of LDS Theology


Well how convenient. In any case it's good to know that the leaders, you know the prophets, are daft idiots that can be safely dismissed as spewing non theological nonsense.

Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, (1969) p 127

As I was riding along the road on my mule I suddenly noticed a very strange personage walking beside me…his head was about even with my shoulders as I sat in my saddle. He wore no clothing, but was covered with hair. His skin was very dark. I asked him where he dwelt and he replied that he had no home, that he was a wanderer in the earth and traveled to and fro. He said he was a very miserable creature, that he had earnestly sought death during his sojourn upon the earth, but that he could not die, and his mission was to destroy the souls of men.I rebuked him in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by virtue of the Holy Priesthood, and commanded him to go hence, and he immediately departed out of my sight...


A 1919 manuscript describes the account of a missionary serving in Hawaii, E. Wesley Smith, "being attacked by a huge, hairy creature, whom Smith drives off in the name of Christ" the night before the mission was dedicated. According to Bowman, Joseph Fielding Smith tells E. Wesley Smith the attacker must've been Cain, referencing Moses 5:35-36 ("Now therefore cursed shalt thou be upon the earth, which hath opened her mouth and received the blood of thy brother at thy hand...a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be upon the earth.") He then referred Elder Wesley Smith to the story of David Patten.
If the manuscript is to be believed, then it would appear that Joseph Fielding Smith also believed Patten’s story of Cain.
see Mormon think
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_spotlight
_Emeritus
Posts: 1702
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _spotlight »

Polygamy was always illegal whenever and wherever the Mormons practiced it. It was even illegal in Canada and Mexico as they only recognize marriages that are legal in the person's home country. John Taylor, the third president of the church, claimed that he believed in keeping all the laws of the United States "except one"…the law in relation to polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 20, p. 317)

Most of Joseph Smith's polygamous marriages occurred in Illinois in the early 1840s. The Illinois Anti-bigamy Law, enacted February 12th, 1833, clearly stated that polygamy was illegal. It reads:

Sec 121. Bigamy consists in the having of two wives or two husbands at one and the same time, knowing that the former husband or wife is still alive. If any person or persons within this State, being married, or who shall hereafter marry, do at any time marry any person or persons, the former husband or wife being alive, the person so offending shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by a fine, not exceeding one thousand dollars, and imprisoned in the penitentiary, not exceeding two years. It shall not be necessary to prove either of the said marriages by the register or certificate thereof, or other record evidence; but the same may be proved by such evidence as is admissible to prove a marriage in other cases, and when such second marriage shall have taken place without this state, cohabitation in this state after such second marriage shall be deemed the commission of the crime of bigamy, and the trial in such case may take place in the county where such cohabitation shall have occurred.

Mormon polygamy was never legal, at any time—not even in the Utah Territory from 1847 to 1890.

Marriage is a legal contract between one man and one woman. There has never been a law enacted to allow otherwise. All the married Mormons who immigrated to Utah in 1847 had been married under the civil laws of their respective states; each one of those states had laws against bigamy, thus making monogamy the "common law."

The very reason Brigham Young chose to move to Utah, rather than Oregon, California, or Texas, as others suggested, was because Utah was an uninhabited "no man's land". However, the area was legally Mexican territory and polygamy was illegal in Mexico.

In the United States, marriage is a legal contract regulated by the various states. When the Mormons went to Utah in 1847, all married Mormons at that time had been married under laws of the states they had come from. Utah became U.S. territory in 1848 after the Mexican War, and thus all citizens living therein became subject to the common laws of the nation, including marriage laws. (To use an analogy, you get your drivers' license from your state, but it is recognized as being legal in all the states. Marriage licenses are similar.)

Once in Utah, Young attempted to establish the "Territory of Deseret," and operate the area as a theocracy, under the "Law of the Lord," which included plural marriage and blood atonement. However, Congress rejected Young's attempt, and in 1850, the area was officially established as Utah Territory, with territorial overseers appointed from Washington D.C. President Millard Fillmore appointed Young as governor. Thus, polygamy became specifically illegal under U. S. common laws in 1850; but, since polygamy was also illegal under Mexican laws beforehand, there was never a time when polygamy was legal in Utah.

The 1862 federal Morrill Act was not the first law which made bigamy illegal; it was merely the first law which specifically reinforced existing state anti-bigamy laws. It was enacted specifically to close the "loophole" that the Mormons mistakenly believed they were operating under.

Even after the passage of the 1862 Morrill Act, the Mormon Church continued to practice polygamy in violation of the law for another half-century, and repeatedly challenged those laws. So anyone who argues that "The Mormons stopped practicing polygamy when it was made illegal" is either misinformed or misrepresenting the truth.

The final nail in the coffin which demonstrates polygamy's illegality was when Ann Eliza Webb filed for "divorce" from Brigham Young and sued him for alimony in 1877. Young successfully argued that their relationship was "an ecclesiastical affair, not a legal one," and the judge rightly ruled that since there was never any legal marriage, Webb could not file for divorce nor seek alimony.

Since Young himself admitted that his own "plural marriages" were not legal marriages, that means that no other Mormon "plural marriage" at any time was a legal marriage either. No legal marriage licenses were ever applied for nor granted, and every single child born of Mormon "plural marriages" was illegitimate - i.e. not born in a legal marriage.

All of the federal laws enacted against Mormon polygamy from 1862 to 1879 merely served to force the Mormons to comply with existing common laws. But the fact that those additional laws were enacted does not mean that Mormon polygamous marriages were ever legal in the first place.

In 1878, the United States Supreme Court upheld the conviction of a Mormon under the federal statute prohibiting bigamy against a challenge that, among other things, the statute infringed on the first amendment right to freedom of religion.
http://www.mormonthink.com/joseph-smith-polygamy.htm
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_spotlight
_Emeritus
Posts: 1702
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _spotlight »

Joseph not only paid his addresses to the young and unmarried women, but he sought "spiritual alliance" with many married ladies who happened to strike his fancy. He taught them that all former marriages were null and void, and that they were at perfect liberty to make another choice of a husband. The marriage covenants were not binding, because they were ratified only by Gentile laws. These laws the Lord did not recognize; consequently all the women were free.

Again, he would appeal to their religious sentiments, and their strong desire to enter into the celestial kingdom. He used often to argue in this manner while endeavoring to convince some wavering or unwilling victim: "Now, my dear sister, it is true that your husband is a good man, a very good man, but you and he are by no means kindred spirits, and he will never be able to save you in the celestial kingdom; it has been revealed by the Spirit that you ought to belong to me."

This sophistry, strange as it may seem, had its weight, and scarcely ever failed of its desired results. Many a woman, with a kind, good husband, who loved her and trusted her, and a family of children, would suffer herself to be sealed to Joseph, at the same time living with the husband whom she was wronging so deeply, he believing fondly that her love was all his own.

One woman said to me not very long since, while giving me some of her experiences in polygamy: "The greatest trial I ever endured in my life was living with my husband and deceiving him, by receiving Joseph's attentions whenever he chose to come to me."

This woman, and others, whose experience has been very similar, are among the very best women in the church; they are as pure-minded and virtuous women as any in the world. They were seduced under the guise of religion, taught that the Lord commanded it, and they submitted as to a cross laid upon them by the divine will. Believing implicitly in the Prophet, they never dreamed of questioning the truth of his revelations, and would have considered themselves on the verge of apostasy, which to a Mormon is a most dangerous and horrible state, from which there is no possible salvation, had they refused to submit to him and to receive his "divine" doctrines.

Some of these women have since said they did not know who was the father of their children; this is not to be wondered at, for after Joseph's declaration annulling all Gentile marriages, the greatest promiscuity was practised; and, indeed, all sense of morality seemed to have been lost by a portion at least of the church. Shocking as all this may appear, women that were sealed to Joseph at that time are more highly respected than any others. It is said, as the highest meed of praise which can be given, that they never repudiated any of the Prophet's teachings, but submitted to all his requirements without a murmur, and eventually they will be exalted to a high position in the celestial kingdom.

Wife No. 19, or The Story of a Life in Bondage by Ann Eliza Young from chapter 3, pg 65
https://archive.org/details/wifenoorstoryofl00youniala
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Maksutov
_Emeritus
Posts: 12480
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:19 pm

Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _Maksutov »

spotlight wrote:
CCC wrote:The Miracle of Forgiveness isn't part of LDS Theology


Well how convenient. In any case it's good to know that the leaders, you know the prophets, are daft idiots that can be safely dismissed as spewing non theological nonsense.

Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, (1969) p 127

As I was riding along the road on my mule I suddenly noticed a very strange personage walking beside me…his head was about even with my shoulders as I sat in my saddle. He wore no clothing, but was covered with hair. His skin was very dark. I asked him where he dwelt and he replied that he had no home, that he was a wanderer in the earth and traveled to and fro. He said he was a very miserable creature, that he had earnestly sought death during his sojourn upon the earth, but that he could not die, and his mission was to destroy the souls of men.I rebuked him in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by virtue of the Holy Priesthood, and commanded him to go hence, and he immediately departed out of my sight...


A 1919 manuscript describes the account of a missionary serving in Hawaii, E. Wesley Smith, "being attacked by a huge, hairy creature, whom Smith drives off in the name of Christ" the night before the mission was dedicated. According to Bowman, Joseph Fielding Smith tells E. Wesley Smith the attacker must've been Cain, referencing Moses 5:35-36 ("Now therefore cursed shalt thou be upon the earth, which hath opened her mouth and received the blood of thy brother at thy hand...a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be upon the earth.") He then referred Elder Wesley Smith to the story of David Patten.
If the manuscript is to be believed, then it would appear that Joseph Fielding Smith also believed Patten’s story of Cain.
see Mormon think


Patten must have stopped to pick mushrooms. Or maybe he was just a fantasizer like Smith, Rigdon, Zebedee Coltrin and others.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_spotlight
_Emeritus
Posts: 1702
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _spotlight »

Maksutov wrote:Patten must have stopped to pick mushrooms. Or maybe he was just a fantasizer like Smith, Rigdon, Zebedee Coltrin and others.

There is this. I haven't read through the whole of it yet.
http://www.mormonthink.com/files/restor ... shroom.pdf
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
_Themis
_Emeritus
Posts: 13426
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _Themis »

The CCC wrote:A Sealing in the LDS context is not marriage.



Depends on the sealing. All of Joseph sealing's to other women were seen as marriages. Show where Joseph or BY didn't view them as marriages. Why do you think BY was trying to make sure he and others married Joseph's wives for this life only. And they had sex to have kids, so Joseph's sealings/marriages were also seen as the right to have sex. We have evidence that he had sex with many of them.
42
_Maksutov
_Emeritus
Posts: 12480
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:19 pm

Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _Maksutov »

spotlight wrote:
Maksutov wrote:Patten must have stopped to pick mushrooms. Or maybe he was just a fantasizer like Smith, Rigdon, Zebedee Coltrin and others.

There is this. I haven't read through the whole of it yet.
http://www.mormonthink.com/files/restor ... shroom.pdf


I see Patten as another storyteller. There's a phenomenon of Dunnism in the church. How many Dunns do we need to see before we see a pattern? Dunnism is the idea that holy BS isn't BS. When you have so many people functioning in an emotional, blinkered environment, the opportunities are just too great to pass up. And hey, just like with Smith, there were people who were deeply moved and inspired by him, who felt The Spirit in great abundance, shed tears over a professional preacher's performance. There are people who want this, who want to believe, to follow, to lose themselves in a system of relationships that are preconceived and preconstructed, a settled and known universe. For some of us it's a structure to build a meaningful life on; to others, it's a prison.

I know that religion originates in imperfect people. Like all other groups, institutions. Anything that has been around for a few generations probably has some horror stories, some closets and skeletons. I believe in daylight for such stuff. It may seem cruel to people, like the Mormons, who inherited a fraudulent system and are trying to make the best of it. They remind me of Michael Corleone, they want to go straight, away from all the crazy stuff of the early years and just concentrate on the good...but this is who they are. This is what has happened. Denying it and redefining it isn't working.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_The CCC
_Emeritus
Posts: 6746
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:51 am

Re: Science is a tool that can be abused!

Post by _The CCC »

Themis wrote:
The CCC wrote:A Sealing in the LDS context is not marriage.



Depends on the sealing. All of Joseph sealing's to other women were seen as marriages. Show where Joseph or BY didn't view them as marriages. Why do you think BY was trying to make sure he and others married Joseph's wives for this life only. And they had sex to have kids, so Joseph's sealings/marriages were also seen as the right to have sex. We have evidence that he had sex with many of them.


Even today a Sealing is not marriage. The LDS are married by the laws of the state. The Sealing is a religious ceremony.

I've said nothing about Brigham Young.
Post Reply