I have no idea why... it could be the three glasses of wine I have drunk while reading this complete thread... but I have enjoyed the read. It has been thoughtful, inspiring, funny, and for once, not a waste of this lurker's time. I just wanted to say thank you.
Themis wrote:I am also undecided. My own expereince tells me very smart people can justify their own dishonesty or wrong doings to the point where they believe they were not being dishonest or acting in bad ways.
I always come back to something Dale Broadhurst said to me years ago, regarding the Kirtland era of Mormonism: "Joseph and Sidney were trying to do two things at once: they were building the kingdom of God on earth, and they were running a scam."
That makes more sense to me than any other explanation of Mormonism's origins.
Mike Reed wrote:Some Masons, and others dabbling in the occult, believed that Egyptian could communicate layers of meaning simultaneously. Moreover, some believed that priests had the ability to encrypt higher esoteric secrets within relatively profane texts.
Assuming that Joseph Smith knew of the developments Egyptologists were having... I doubt he would have dispaired over the possibility that his translation would differ. His magical/Masonic world view gave him an "out": his translation was not secular, but rather brought forth the Papyrus' esoteric encrypted message.
What I think catalyst people forget is that even if Joseph believed in some esoteric encrypted message (I haven't seen any evidence that shows this), it does not explain why God would allow such a mistake to take place, since he is the one who is needed to give inspiration of a real story.
Themis wrote:What I think catalyst people forget is that even if Joseph believed in some esoteric encrypted message (I haven't seen any evidence that shows this), it does not explain why God would allow such a mistake to take place, since he is the one who is needed to give inspiration of a real story.
So should God allow us not to make mistakes? Is that what you are saying?
Or should he write scripture with his own hand on say, golden plates? Would that help?
Themis wrote:What I think catalyst people forget is that even if Joseph believed in some esoteric encrypted message (I haven't seen any evidence that shows this), it does not explain why God would allow such a mistake to take place, since he is the one who is needed to give inspiration of a real story.
So should God allow us not to make mistakes? Is that what you are saying?
Or should he write scripture with his own hand on say, golden plates? Would that help?
One would think that if God required new scriptures because the old ones contained errors (as LDS believe) that the new ones He produced would be...well...error free.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
mfbukowski wrote: So should God allow us not to make mistakes? Is that what you are saying?
That's not the issue. It's about God deciding to give inspiration based on a mistake, and a bad one at that that will have very negative consequences for the church later on. It's one thing to allow one to make mistakes, it's an entirely another to get involved in that mistake. God now is making his own mistake and being deceptive about it.
Or should he write scripture with his own hand on say, golden plates? Would that help?