Wade Englund: Victim of a Church Court?

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_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

wenglund wrote:Hi Dan,

I appreciate your expressed concern for me, but at the same time I am more than a bit puzzled by it.


Hmmm... now you know what ex-LDS feel like, when you express your concern for them.

You're puzzled by his concern? You doubt that his concern is genuine (implied if not expressly stated in your comments), and then you turn around and you wonder why we here would doubt that your stated concern for ex-LDS is genuine? I'm much more apt to think Dan's concern is genuine, while yours is manufactured, whole cloth, with the intent to manipulate the recipient of your so-called concern. A truly repentent soul would simply be grateful for such genuine concern. Your lack of gratitude shows your true colors.
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

harmony wrote:
wenglund wrote:Hi Dan,

I appreciate your expressed concern for me, but at the same time I am more than a bit puzzled by it.


Hmmm... now you know what ex-LDS feel like, when you express your concern for them.

You're puzzled by his concern? You doubt that his concern is genuine (implied if not expressly stated in your comments), and then you turn around and you wonder why we here would doubt that your stated concern for ex-LDS is genuine? I'm much more apt to think Dan's concern is genuine, while yours is manufactured, whole cloth, with the intent to manipulate the recipient of your so-called concern. A truly repentent soul would simply be grateful for such genuine concern. Your lack of gratitude shows your true colors.


There is nothing in what I said that could in any reasonable way be interpreted as me suggesting that Dan's concern wasn't genuine. I am quite certain that it was, and I sincerely appreciated it.

And, it doesn't surprise me that you would so grotesquely misread what I said (virtually the opposite from what I intended), just as you have chosen to do with my genuine and sincere desire to help you and other unbelievers. That is your dysfunctional M. O. when it comes to interacting with your perceived opponents.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Mercury
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Re: Wade Englund: Victim of a Church Court?

Post by _Mercury »

Mister Scratch wrote:It seems that our dear friend Wade's character is richer and more detailed that I had imagined. Here is an extremely interesting post from the fittingly named MADboard:

wenglund wrote:Having been on the receiving end of a Church court for personal behavior, I tend to view it differently. Since I looked (and still look) to the Church for moral guidance, and I value the perspective of my leaders, and I recognize that no man is an island, and that my behavior, while done in private, could very well impact others besides myself, I thought it perfectly appropriate for the Church to counsel with me and determine what may be in the best interest of all parties concerned. And, even though there was some disciplinary action taken, I didn't so much view it as "punative" (though I was perfectly willing to stand accountable and take what may be due), but actually as relief from certain binding and perhaps ominous (at least to me in my diminished spiritual condition) responsibilities and covenants. I viewed it as a court of love, which may have helped, I hope, avert the flames from engulfing me. ;-)


Now this has got my interest piqued! Perhaps this goes some ways towards explaining Wade's fascination with pseudo-psychoanalysis, CBT, and other such "help"? The few clues given here are intriguing to me. It seems his ecclesiastical leaders were able to convince him that something he was doing "in private" was harming others. I cannot help but wonder if Wade was unnecessarily punished for whatever it was that he did.


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Re: Wade Englund: Victim of a Church Court?

Post by _Mister Scratch »

VegasRefugee wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:It seems that our dear friend Wade's character is richer and more detailed that I had imagined. Here is an extremely interesting post from the fittingly named MADboard:

wenglund wrote:Having been on the receiving end of a Church court for personal behavior, I tend to view it differently. Since I looked (and still look) to the Church for moral guidance, and I value the perspective of my leaders, and I recognize that no man is an island, and that my behavior, while done in private, could very well impact others besides myself, I thought it perfectly appropriate for the Church to counsel with me and determine what may be in the best interest of all parties concerned. And, even though there was some disciplinary action taken, I didn't so much view it as "punative" (though I was perfectly willing to stand accountable and take what may be due), but actually as relief from certain binding and perhaps ominous (at least to me in my diminished spiritual condition) responsibilities and covenants. I viewed it as a court of love, which may have helped, I hope, avert the flames from engulfing me. ;-)


Now this has got my interest piqued! Perhaps this goes some ways towards explaining Wade's fascination with pseudo-psychoanalysis, CBT, and other such "help"? The few clues given here are intriguing to me. It seems his ecclesiastical leaders were able to convince him that something he was doing "in private" was harming others. I cannot help but wonder if Wade was unnecessarily punished for whatever it was that he did.


Chronic Masturbation?


You know Vegas, I cannot help but speculate here. After all, it could only possibly be a finite number of things... What on earth was he doing---in private---that would merit such concern, not only from himself, but from his ecclesiastical leaders? Just how serious was this mysterious "behavior"?
_Mercury
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Re: Wade Englund: Victim of a Church Court?

Post by _Mercury »

Mister Scratch wrote:You know Vegas, I cannot help but speculate here. After all, it could only possibly be a finite number of things... What on earth was he doing---in private---that would merit such concern, not only from himself, but from his ecclesiastical leaders? Just how serious was this mysterious "behavior"?


More than likely it was unnecessary. Wade, if your reading this consider that you did NOT have to go through the manufactured shame of a church court. You can always see that our side is much more logical.
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_Lucretia MacEvil
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

I appreciate your expressed concern for me, but at the same time I am more than a bit puzzled by it. Your impressions about my Church action are quite different (nearly 180 degrees opposite) to my perspective and personal experience. I suspect that is a function of our divergent world views and experiences. But even still..

Actually, it was the transgressions that had complicated my life, and the Church action helped to significantly de-complicate things. So, yes, it was well worth it.
1) I was in no way a "victim" of a Church court, nor did I experience any measure of "abuse of priesthood authority", but rather I was benefited thereby.
I am not sure that constitutes "abuse of authority", but nevertheless, I have given them authority in a number of ways: 1) via my joining the Church, 2) my firm belief in priesthood order and heirarchy, 3) my sustaining vote semi-annually, and 4) my innitiating the Church action with them.

For one, I needed them to help me effectively and properly resolve the problem so that it wouldn't be too big of a burden for me to handle. As I see it, I wouldn't have gotten myself in the mess that I did were I completely capable on my own. And, unlike some, I am not averse to being assisted. I actually welcome loving counsel, a third-party perspective, and spiritual interventions. Besides, those who were affected encompased many more people than just myself, and the impact went well beyond simply my not setting a good example. But, even were it just a matter of example, I disagree with you about it being a "load of crap". In this screwed up world we now live in, children in particular can use contemporary role models to set standards and demonstrate that those standards can be abided. They also need role models that can evince the right ways to recover from a fall and continue to run the good race.

Why? Isn't it between you and God?

No.

I experienced no self-flagellation, no misery, and no hatred of the flesh. Rather, my experience was quite the opposite. It was an uplifting experience that brought me to greater respect my body, mind, and spirit, and view the same for others. The melodrama is something you are projecting onto my experience.

4) I felt the verdict was very reasonable and warranted, and even thought at the time that it may have been a bit too lenient.


This must be great for your esteem, Wade.


It was--not that I would expect that you would understand.

5) This action occured more than two decades ago, long before I had heard of CBT, and long before my fascination with helping people emotionally, psychologically, and so forth.


Well, lets hope you don't follow the church's idea of helping people.


I don't intend to help people in the ways you grossly misunderstand the Church to be helping people--though I hope to help people in some of the ways that the Church lovingly and upliftingly helped me. My Guiding Principles are based much on precepts and principles at the foundation of the restored gospel of Christ and as practiced by the Church.

. . . I may have asserted that apostasy was
unavoidably a function of sin--not necessarily of a "moral" kind). But, I am not sure how my needing moral guidance multiple decades prior to our discussion at FAIR has much of anything to do with my point about apostacy. My experience demonstrates that sin need not lead to apostasy, and that one may benefit from not attempting to excuse sin, but rather to stand accountable for, and rise above, one's sins.

Honestly, Wade, I feel bad that you have to subject yourself to such humiliation.


And, I feel bad that you woould feel bad for something that never really occured except in your imagination. What very slight and momentary humiliation I may have felt, was self-induced, and was a function of my own misunderstanding. Once I quickly gained an accurate perception, the experience became wonderfully uplifting and empowering.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Now I'm wondering if it's even possible for anyone to be a good Mormon and a good therapist. Probably not.
_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

Lucretia MacEvil wrote: Now I'm wondering if it's even possible for anyone to be a good Mormon and a good therapist. Probably not.


What is your basis for thinking so?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
_Lucretia MacEvil
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Post by _Lucretia MacEvil »

wenglund wrote:
Lucretia MacEvil wrote: Now I'm wondering if it's even possible for anyone to be a good Mormon and a good therapist. Probably not.


What is your basis for thinking so?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Because all it comes down to for you is the church party line, and I don't think the church is so good for mental health.
_moksha
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Post by _moksha »

Lucretia MacEvil wrote:
wenglund wrote:
Lucretia MacEvil wrote: Now I'm wondering if it's even possible for anyone to be a good Mormon and a good therapist. Probably not.


What is your basis for thinking so?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Because all it comes down to for you is the church party line, and I don't think the church is so good for mental health.

I disagree. I think it is entirely possible for an LDS therapist working outside of LDS Social Services to either compartmentalize their judgmentalness for Church on Sunday or else abandon the need to be judgmental at all.
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_wenglund
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Post by _wenglund »

moksha wrote:
Lucretia MacEvil wrote:
wenglund wrote:
Lucretia MacEvil wrote: Now I'm wondering if it's even possible for anyone to be a good Mormon and a good therapist. Probably not.


What is your basis for thinking so?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Because all it comes down to for you is the church party line, and I don't think the church is so good for mental health.


I disagree. I think it is entirely possible for an LDS therapist working outside of LDS Social Services to either compartmentalize their judgmentalness for Church on Sunday or else abandon the need to be judgmental at all.


Actually, I would go even one step further and suggest that there isn't even a need to compartmentalize because the Church's so-called "party line" and/or "judgementalism" aren't even a factor for consideration in mental health interventions--at least not those I ascribe to. As such, an LDS therapist may be effective both in and outside of LDS Family Services.

Lucetta's presumption is mistaken, and I suspect her false presumption is a function of ignorance about the mental health profession and false assumptions about the Church and its members (perhaps she is projecting her own LDS experience onto the members), if not prejudice on her part. Hopefully, that can be corrected with the right information and a differing LDS perspective than her own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-
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