Hatred for Mormons

[Jersey Girl]

Atlanticmike:

So, you’ve invented your own religion and are merely pretending that it’s “Mormonism?”

That's really what everyone does, so hush.

[Jersey Girl]

I'm a cusser to, when I get going on a cussing rant I could make a Navy Master Chief blush.

But you can't make a Jersey Girl blush. And that's a fact, jack.

[Some Schmo]

There's lots of ways to Morm.

I suppose that's true. There's a way for every single person who calls him or herself LDS. In the same vein, I also think that every person's god is their own unique invention (drawn on suggestions from other believers).

Your sister is no different than a large percentage of Mormons. Most Mormons don't even attend church and the ones that do, only half probably have a temple recommend. I think your sister and I would get along just fine. I'm a cusser to, when I get going on a cussing rant I could make a Navy Master Chief blush.

This is perhaps why I see so much hypocrisy in religious groups. They pretend to be one thing and live the way they want. It's a big reason I left the church, probably the biggest. I hated LDS culture. It was cloying and unrealistically saccharine. My suggestion would be, lose the pretense. Why have religion at all? What really matters, that people think you're moral, or that you actually are moral?

As far as Mormon truth claims go, are you saying you think there's "truth" in Mormonism? What truth are you talking about?

The church has certainly stumbled upon certain truths, but none of them are unique to Mormonism.

The questionable truth claims I was referring to are the supernatural ones. Stuff like eternal life, marriage for eternity, Joe Smith talked to god on the regular... stuff like that.

Are you talking about the TRUTH that says every second we live we are a second closer to our final heart beat and that much closer to decaying inside a wooden box that's inside a concrete box that's 6' inside the earth? Because no religion is based on that truth, infact the truth claims found inside a religion should be looked at more like an ointment prescribed to be rubbed on a wound. The wound being the "reality" that one day we will all eventually die. That truth can only be found inside the heart.

I don't remember anyone ever saying anything like that when I went to church.

I absolutely consider religion to be a salve, or more accurately, a placebo. It feeds our natural tendency to deny certain hard truths, like death. Religion doesn't do death. It feeds people's youthful desire to live forever when death is a simple "transition."

Chief Tecumseh said, " So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion, respect others in their view, and demand they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the Great Divide. Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none. When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones too fools and robs the spirit of its Vision. When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.

That's not a bad quote, although I vehemently disagree with the line, "Trouble no one about their religion, respect others in their view, and demand they respect yours." It is not in our best interests to respect other people's points of view no matter what. It is in our best interest to respect that others have a different point of view, but respecting all points of view themselves is an outrageous ask. There are plenty of points of view that do not deserve respect. Thinking the Earth is flat or only a few thousand years old are a couple examples.

[Atlanticmike]

I have enough time to answer two of your questions this morning Jersey Girl. As far as outside influences, my wife and I chose to be really open about supplying information about sex to our children. I've never really liked how most Mormon parents in my area seem to avoid the topic almost completely, leaving the child clueless, except for what they learn on their phone these days. I actually paid for two sessions with a sex therapist just so I could ask her questions about what kids are facing these days when it comes to misinformation about a healthy sex life. Second, we seek out certain situations to put them in that we think will help them grow spiritually and mentally, like sending them to christian summer camps. Actually bought my daughter a regular Bible so she didn't have to show up at camp with her big ol Mormon quad. Third, I love rock bands and go to a ton of concerts and we would take them to concerts so they could see how people with a totally different life style live and act.

As far as my faith crisis goes, well, I'm not really sure when it started now that I've had time to think about it. But, in December my brother in law sent me a link to one of the Fair Mormon videos they put out with the three stooges talking about certain Mormon critics, you know, the ones with kwaku and Ellis. For some reason that I still don't know why, it pissed me off and kind of sent me in a tail spin that took a couple months to get over. In the days after watching all those videos and reading a bunch of stuff, I was on a mission to find out what Fair Mormon was and if it was actually part of the church. I was so mad I called the church office building and asked to speak to an apostle, obviously the nice lady said nope. So I asked for emails so I could write them, she said nope and said I would have to write them a letter and mail it to them. She then had me talk to a guy named Tom in the PR department and I feel really sorry for him because he is the nicest guy, but I let Tom know how I felt and he didn't deserve that, but I was pissed. I told him about the videos and he didn't believe me, said he knows a few people at Fair and there's know way they would ever put out videos with content like I was explaining to him. Well, after watching a few of the videos he actually called back and apologized and said he was going to contact someone at Fair and ask what is up with the videos. Tom was a great guy.

I don't do social media, can't stand it, and I have never visited forums like this up till December of last year, and the first one I joined was a pro Mormon forum that I joined to specifically ask if Fair was a part if the LDS church. Well, again, I was kind of a jerk on that forum also, my wife said I would only last a few days because when I was born God forgot to send me down here with a filter, I'll pretty much say what I want. In the beginning on that forum I was really pissed off and it took me a while to understand what was actually going on, like I said, up to that point i was pretty much stuck in early 1990s mode, at least that's what my wife says, I like talking face to face, this typing stuff is to slow, but somehow here I am still doing it. Anyways, that forum helped me a lot in understanding how different Mormons think around the world, I was really sheltered I guess you could say when it comes to how other Mormons outside my area live. I was banned from that forum yesterday for not have a filter I guess, who knows, they don't tell you why they ban you.

So now here I am, still talking on line, something I never did before December, I buy way to many books about Mormonism that I don't need because I'm obsessed with it for some reason, I listen to way to many podcast I don't need to and this obsession with trying to figure out Mormonism doesn't seem to want to go away. Maybe I'm goin through a mid life crisis

[DrW]

Chief Tecumseh said, " So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion, respect others in their view, and demand they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the Great Divide. Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none. When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and no thing, for abuse turns the wise ones too fools and robs the spirit of its Vision. When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home.

That's not a bad quote, although I vehemently disagree with the line, "Trouble no one about their religion, respect others in their view, and demand they respect yours." It is not in our best interests to respect other people's points of view no matter what. It is in our best interest to respect that others have a different point of view, but respecting all points of view themselves is an outrageous ask. There are plenty of points of view that do not deserve respect. Thinking the Earth is flat or only a few thousand years old are a couple examples.

Of course you are correct with your last point here, SS.
Irrespective of 2 Corinthians 11:19 (or perhaps because of 2 Corinthians 11:19, depending on your reading of the KJV) one should not suffer fools gladly.

[Physics Guy]

Welcome to the boards, Atlanticmike. I still sometimes lurk on the MDD board and I thought your recent posts there were very reasonable.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

… i was pretty much stuck in early 1990s mode, at least that's what my wife says, I like talking face to face, this typing stuff is to slow, but somehow here I am still doing it. Anyways, that forum helped me a lot in understanding how different Mormons think around the world, I was really sheltered I guess you could say when it comes to how other Mormons outside my area live. I was banned from that forum yesterday for not have a filter I guess, who knows, they don't tell you why they ban you.

So now here I am, still talking on line, something I never did before December, I buy way to many books about Mormonism that I don't need because I'm obsessed with it for some reason, I listen to way to many podcast I don't need to and this obsession with trying to figure out Mormonism doesn't seem to want to go away. Maybe I'm goin through a mid life crisis

I totally get the early 90’s thing. I’m a GenX’er and we still value phone conversations, face to face interaction, and reading real, tangible books. Here’s a site that helped me way back in 2001 and helped me during my investigation phase:

http://www.packham.n4m.org/

The for at is perfect for us middle-aged X’ers.

- Doc

[Atlanticmike]

Atlanticmike:

So, you’ve invented your own religion and are merely pretending that it’s “Mormonism?”

Hmmmmmmm, I was under the impression once you were baptized of water and fire, and receive the gift of the Holy ghost you were always Mormon, no? Seriously though, why do you think I have strayed beyond the boundaries of what "Mormonism" allows?

[Physics Guy]

I wouldn't say that people here hate Mormons, but some are angry about Mormonism. And there's a certain amount of animus against a few Mormon apologists. Threads that bash Louis Midgley and Daniel Peterson in particular are not uncommon. I'm not a fan of either of them but I don't understand how much attention they get here. I wouldn't blame anyone for avoiding those threads.

On the other hand there isn't much respect here for Mormon beliefs, let alone reverence. I think people who actually post here are treated respectfully, at least unless they behave like pretty blatant trolls, but few people here take care to refer to religious beliefs of any kind only in respectful ways. People here don't generally see any conflict between respecting you and despising Joseph Smith, for example. So if harsh language for Smith feels like an insult to you, you may well feel a hostile atmosphere here.

On the other hand I think you can believe in some form of Mormonism, even in a very conservative form, and still recognise that, to people who don't believe Joseph Smith was a prophet, he's likely to look like a con artist instead. So it shouldn't be too disturbing if non- and ex-Mormons don't much like Joseph Smith.

From what I saw of your posts on the other board, Atlanticmike, I don't think there's too much here that is really going to bother you.

[Atlanticmike]

Atlanticmike -

I am genuinely grateful to you for explaining yourself so frankly.

Would I be misunderstanding you if I said that your way to 'Morm' means having been brought up in a Mormon cultural background, but, apart from that, thinking entirely for yourself about the general area of what has been called 'life, the universe and everything'? You don't for instance, seem to be impacted by standard CoJColDS truth claims about the destinations of human beings after death, the necessity of keeping covenants to obtain blessings, eternal families, and so on - the claims that it sends missionaries all over the world to get people to believe in. I think you and I would agree that he CoJCoLDS certainly does NOT hold to Tecumseh's principle of "Trouble no one about their religion"!

By that way of thinking, I would be a kind of Episcopalian still, since that is the way I was brought up, although I no longer believe in the reality of any deity or deities, and am pretty sure that when we die we are .... dead. Jesus was an ordinary human being who lived in the first century, and was born and died like the rest of us do. I would feel quite uncomfortable if anyone showed signs of thinking I was a Christian and I did not explain that I was not - the exception being, of course, where I might offend or hurt a well-meaning and uncombative person by seeming to despise their faith. Yet you are quite comfortable with being identified as a Mormon. Maybe for you it's a bit like being Jewish? There are plenty of atheist Jews who still don't want to be taken for gentiles.

You would be correct that I was born into Mormonism and that I think entirely for myself. I also teach my kids to try to do the same. Mormonism is the only religion we follow and use to build a foundation for our family to go out into the world and live a prosperous and meaningful life. The way I look at cojcolds truth claims is all religions are a little quirky, and trying to understand the history of a religion is pointless, in my opinion. I keep my covenants and honor what I think are the most important parts of what Mormonism can offer a true believing member. My ""Mormonism"" begins and ends with a relationship with heavenly father and mother. I often imagine heavenly mother right beside God when I pray. Also, I believe they wouldn't send us down here without supplying us with everything we need to return to them some day. So, that's probably why you think I am viewing Mormonism in a different light than most, because I do, I'll admit that. What your sensing that might be different about my view of Mormonism is, I'm not a follower, the only thing good about sheep is their wool and they taste good. Again, God supplied us with everything we need before sending us down here.
Here's a great quote by Joseph Cambell to help you understand how I view life. " All the god's, All the heavens, all the hell's are within you." I'm in control of my destiny, I teach my kids that they're in control of theirs. No man stands in between them and God, not a prophet, bishop and not me, their dad.