Was the Book of Mormon a consequence of Joe stringing everyone along for years? imagine you are joe. You swear up and down the white indian teleporting into your room every so often wants you to have this weighty gold brick with a record on it. You get married, people think your a scam artist and then you start realizing that if you don't produce the book the gullible saps will even lose faith in you. So you swear the towel covering the brick is said gold plates and stick your head in a hat, relying on the saps to transcribe your colorful rantings.
Was the Book of Mormon just an end to a continual tall tale that helped joe learn how to spin even bigger tales?
Mercury, I would suggest that you read the Book of Mormon, paying particular attention to the complexity of the "plot," the doctrine taught, and the desription of the social and cultural structures. Then read the eye witness accounts of the way it was produced.
Then see if you can figure out how a 3rd grade educated farmer could have produced the text in about a 9 week period of time.
Then come back and we can talk about whether or not it was a slapped together attempt to shore up a failing following.
Remember his father was a school teacher. There are home-schooled kids today that go to Harvard and Stanford.
charity wrote:But when you say there is absolutely no evidence for the Book of Mormon, you have gone over the top and spun out of control.
Rational thought requires skepticism. Your lack of skepticism is troubling and shows a deep lack of approaching matters properly. I am sure you are functional in your daily life but when it comes to your approach to so-called spiritual matters I see your behavior to be laughably ignorant.
I find your arrogance about what is skeptism to be pretty funny, too. You have a lack of skepticism about the anti arguments. They say it, it opposes the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, etc. you believe it without taking a look.
I would put out here that you know nothing about my approach to spiritual matters.
Oh, you probably are functional in your daily life. But then, who knows. We are only message board entitiies here.
charity wrote:(Does this board have smilies availalbe? I haven't found them.)
don't think so. What IS allowed are rational arguments. So far I haven't seen one from you backing up your pathetic attempts at backing your s*** up.
So...either give me compelling scholarly evidence from those who do not have a vested interest in their research or gain credibility by admitting that there is no compelling evidence backing up that laughable book.
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
charity wrote: Mercury, I would suggest that you read the Book of Mormon, paying particular attention to the complexity of the "plot," the doctrine taught, and the desription of the social and cultural structures. Then read the eye witness accounts of the way it was produced.
Then see if you can figure out how a 3rd grade educated farmer could have produced the text in about a 9 week period of time.
Yeah, if you frame the argument that way it makes it more compelling. You have to wonder why the missionaries are rejected at such a high rate after they tell people about the Book of Mormon. The thing is the story isn't this simple.
How many people don't accept truth when they hear it? I know people who think smoking doesn't cause lung cancer. How come? Is it because that whole cancer/tobacco thing is fiction? It isn't the qualilty of the message that determines who accepts it and who doesn't.
If Joseph Smith was just a farmer with no other interests, and he only had a 3rd grade education and then one day out of the blue said, "Hey, I'm gonna write a book" and in 9 months he produced the 1981 version of the Book of Mormon, I would find it hard to believe, too. But that's not the critics argument, is it?
The 1981 Book of Mormon is the final draft, polished up by professionals. The 1830 Book of Mormon was the first draft, and it was pretty rough. Joseph Smith wasn't just a simple farm boy with a 3rd grade education. He made money as a "glass looker."
Do you know how popular and socially acceptable treasure finding was in his day?
You know his background. He was telling tales since the time he was a boy, whether it be tales of finding treasure with his seer stone, or entertaining his family with stories of ancient Native Americans. Joseph's mind was pre-occupied with a much bigger world outside his farm. Do you undestand where those stories came from? He was being tutored by angels. He became a prophet at age 14 and needed a lot of education in spiritual matters.
You don't need an education to be a story teller and a showman. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon shares many themes which were common in Joseph Smith's day, and which exist in literature from the same time-period. And it has themes which were absolutely contrary to those in his society. Think American ideas on government, rulers, etc. Nothing post American Revolution in the Book of Mormon, which you would expect if an author were mirroring his own society.
charity wrote:But when you say there is absolutely no evidence for the Book of Mormon, you have gone over the top and spun out of control.
Rational thought requires skepticism. Your lack of skepticism is troubling and shows a deep lack of approaching matters properly. I am sure you are functional in your daily life but when it comes to your approach to so-called spiritual matters I see your behavior to be laughably ignorant.
I find your arrogance about what is skeptism to be pretty funny, too. You have a lack of skepticism about the anti arguments. They say it, it opposes the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, etc. you believe it without taking a look.
I would put out here that you know nothing about my approach to spiritual matters.
Oh, you probably are functional in your daily life. But then, who knows. We are only message board entitiies here.
I find your arrogance pertaining to what constitutes evidence to be pathetic. You have a lack of skepticism to something that is an obvious fraud and no skepticism towards someone who was a convicted confidence gamer.
I know everything about what you percieve as "spiritual matters". You know nothing of me but let me drop you a little hint. I am an RM, I was a member for 25 years until I finally decided to stop lying to myself and I posess more skepticism in my thumb than you do in your whole body.
True. We are message board entities. My entity implements skepticism and study in employing rational thought to discern truth. Your entity is a carbon copy of every other mountebank, a brainwashed tool whos purpose in life is to deny the more rational path and follow foolishly chasing after invisible dragons. Step outside your comfort zone and realize that your opinion is not supported by the evidence we both have.
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
Second is he really only 3rd grade educated. Take a look at Joseph's writings before the translation of the Book of Mormon and you'll see a keen and articulate mind. Heck look at his "Revelations" written at the same time D&C 3& D&C 10. Does the language and writing style seem familiar?
Phaedrus
His wife said he couldn't compose a coherent sentence at the time the Book of Mormon was translated. But then you wouldn't want an eye withness to get in the way of your argument.
charity wrote:His wife said he couldn't compose a coherent sentence at the time the Book of Mormon was translated. But then you wouldn't want an eye withness to get in the way of your argument.
Especially one as detached and disinterested as Emma.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
Mercury wrote:It really is a complicated field of knowledge which cannot be written off as easily as is being done here.
Uhh, no. Whatever you cite will be laughable. Your assertions are laughable. The Book of Mormon was concieved, written and marketed for the purpose of continuing the fraud that is Joseph Smith.[/quote]
What a perfect example of "my mind is made up, don't confuse me with the facts." Go ahead, stick your head in the sand. You wouldn't want to find out something that would shake your little anti-Mormon world view.
charity wrote: Mercury, I would suggest that you read the Book of Mormon, paying particular attention to the complexity of the "plot," the doctrine taught, and the desription of the social and cultural structures. Then read the eye witness accounts of the way it was produced.
Then see if you can figure out how a 3rd grade educated farmer could have produced the text in about a 9 week period of time.
Yeah, if you frame the argument that way it makes it more compelling. You have to wonder why the missionaries are rejected at such a high rate after they tell people about the Book of Mormon. The thing is the story isn't this simple.
How many people don't accept truth when they hear it? I know people who think smoking doesn't cause lung cancer. How come? Is it because that whole cancer/tobacco thing is fiction? It isn't the qualilty of the message that determines who accepts it and who doesn't.
If Joseph Smith was just a farmer with no other interests, and he only had a 3rd grade education and then one day out of the blue said, "Hey, I'm gonna write a book" and in 9 months he produced the 1981 version of the Book of Mormon, I would find it hard to believe, too. But that's not the critics argument, is it?
The 1981 Book of Mormon is the final draft, polished up by professionals. The 1830 Book of Mormon was the first draft, and it was pretty rough. Joseph Smith wasn't just a simple farm boy with a 3rd grade education. He made money as a "glass looker."
Do you know how popular and socially acceptable treasure finding was in his day?
You know his background. He was telling tales since the time he was a boy, whether it be tales of finding treasure with his seer stone, or entertaining his family with stories of ancient Native Americans. Joseph's mind was pre-occupied with a much bigger world outside his farm. Do you undestand where those stories came from? He was being tutored by angels. He became a prophet at age 14 and needed a lot of education in spiritual matters.
You don't need an education to be a story teller and a showman. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon shares many themes which were common in Joseph Smith's day, and which exist in literature from the same time-period. And it has themes which were absolutely contrary to those in his society. Think American ideas on government, rulers, etc. Nothing post American Revolution in the Book of Mormon, which you would expect if an author were mirroring his own society.
OK, this is just getting sad. It wasn't the fact he was treasure digging. It was the fact that he stole peoples money through treasure digging, was arrested and CONVICTED for conning people VIA treasure digging. Your "prophet" is a convicted felon.
Your willful ignorance is not surprising. I don't know if you are naïve or just stupid. Right now im going to hedge my bets and say both.
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning
Second is he really only 3rd grade educated. Take a look at Joseph's writings before the translation of the Book of Mormon and you'll see a keen and articulate mind. Heck look at his "Revelations" written at the same time D&C 3& D&C 10. Does the language and writing style seem familiar?
Phaedrus
His wife said he couldn't compose a coherent sentence at the time the Book of Mormon was translated. But then you wouldn't want an eye withness to get in the way of your argument.
Did she not also later deny that he was a polygamist?