Nephi wrote:I have to ask a speculative question to the OP. If Christ is the father, then who is Christ talking to when he is hung on the cross, or who is Christ talking to in the garden when he asked the cup be taken from his lips? I am not trying to troll here, I just have never been able to rectify an acceptable answer for these questions.
we don't know if these are Jesus's words. The author given the name Mark wrote a tale about a Jesus that caught on; other's copied and some wrote something a little different like the gospel of John. Some may say that early LDS church history dealt with one God who was the Lord Jesus Christ and only later was it rewritten and polished to include two different Gods.
Wow. No wonder you have problems with faith. You don't even have a simple foundation.
Have you ever even had a testimony? Do you have any experience at all with the Holy Ghost?
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
Gazelam wrote:Do you have any experience at all with the Holy Ghost?
I love it.
Just imagine ... no, I cannot bring myself to even begin writing a parody of the kind of attitude that this way of talking implies.
I gave up theism some time ago. But when I remember all those decent reverent believers I knew, who would never have dared to talk about God in terms of such confident familiarity, I find myself asking what kind of diminished God Gazelam believes in.
An analogy, if not a parody, then: one ancient Athenian ant is talking to another, and asks condescendingly "Do you have any experience at all with Socrates?".
I said further that the question has arisen as to whether a public correction should be made and a addendum given emphasizing the [bottom line of photocopied page of journal cut off] . . . it is felt that that would not be wise because Brother McConkie is one of the General Authorities, and it might lessen his influence. The First Presidency recommend that the situation be left as it is, and whenever a question about it arises, we can answer that it is unauthoritative; that it was issued by Brother McConkie on his own responsibility, and he must answer for it.
WOW!
If something is wrong, ignore it. If someone brings it us, go with the, "just opinion," statement.
:-( ~dancer~
So much for the role of the Prophet of God to be the last arbiter of truth and doctrine and boldly declaring it to the world. One wonders whether Isiah or Abinidi would have been so timid in declaring truth.
Data point indicating that what matters to Bretheren is not "truth" but authority.
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
thestyleguy wrote:Bruce R. McConkie didn't just get it wrong he missed the entire dart board and lead people astray:
During this last few months I have thought about certain things. One is Jesus Christ. During the past thirty-years when I would pray I would pray to my Heavenly Father. I was always taught that he was separate from Jesus Christ so when I prayed, I couldn't have two people in mind when saying the prayer so Jesus was left out, except in closing or in asking for a better relationship with him. This praying to Heavenly Father and not Jesus Christ was really taught by the lightly-bombastic-mormon-leader Bruce R. McConkie. I now am starting to pray again but I'm praying to the Lord and I feel better. I have him centered in my mind. I started just with the Lord's prayer. It's kind of interesting as in all the time I went to a Mormon church I only heard someone say the Lord's prayer one time, at least the opening when praying. I really look back at Bruce R. and think that he got it wrong on this issue, got it wrong on the Catholic church as Joseph was speaking about masons, and now missed the mark on the word principal ancestors . Leaders can do so much damage when they don't get things rights. I'm sure in the 1820's early LDS leaders would say that praying to the Lord is the way to do it. It was only later that evolution occured when god head was split. It makes better sense that Jesus Christ is the Father in Heaven, that he is Jesus on earth and his spirit is the Holy Ghost.
It would be interesting to do an analysis of McConkie's talks, and see how many times he screwed up. We know his book has some major misses (I wonder if anyone has a list of the changes he had to make?). Anyone got a list?
Also, do you have a source for the idea that Joseph was speaking about the Masons instead of the Catholics, when he referred to the whore of the earth?
Hi Harmony: I think Dan Vogel is the expert there - I read his mason essay in american apocrypha - it is brilliant - you should get the book because every essay written is outstanding. I'm sure for a short answer you could email him. If I recall correctly he wrote that Martin Harris called the Book of Mormon an Anti-Mason Bible and everyone in that era that read it said that it dealt with the masons. FAIR trys to say it wasn't anti-mason as Joseph joined the masons but we see that Joseph changed his mind left and right about things - When Hyram left New York due to debts, local mason members came looking for him. Joseph wrote him a letter saying to beware of the masons. I'm sure the whore of the earth had secret combinations and that all had to do with masons. It's interesting that Joseph would go to the masons and make it's ceremony the most holy of holys in the church when previously he called it a whore.
thestyleguy wrote:Hi Harmony: I think Dan Vogel is the expert there - I read his mason essay in american apocrypha - it is brilliant - you should get the book because every essay written is outstanding. I'm sure for a short answer you could email him. If I recall correctly he wrote that Martin Harris called the Book of Mormon an Anti-Mason Bible and everyone in that era that read it said that it dealt with the masons. FAIR trys to say it wasn't anti-mason as Joseph joined the masons but we see that Joseph changed his mind left and right about things - When Hyram left New York due to debts, local mason members came looking for him. Joseph wrote him a letter saying to beware of the masons. I'm sure the whore of the earth had secret combinations and that all had to do with masons. It's interesting that Joseph would go to the masons and make it's ceremony the most holy of holys in the church when previously he called it a whore.
Does anyone besides me see the irony of a secret combination, the whore of the earth, being trusted with the sacred signs and tokens? I'm sure you all do, and I'm the only one who didn't know.
Thanks, style. I live with Mr Pickle, and a more TBM Pickle would be hard to find. No anti book will ever be allowed in this house. Our most anti book is Rough Stone Rolling. ;-)
Nephi wrote:I have to ask a speculative question to the OP. If Christ is the father, then who is Christ talking to when he is hung on the cross, or who is Christ talking to in the garden when he asked the cup be taken from his lips? I am not trying to troll here, I just have never been able to rectify an acceptable answer for these questions.
we don't know if these are Jesus's words. The author given the name Mark wrote a tale about a Jesus that caught on; other's copied and some wrote something a little different like the gospel of John. Some may say that early LDS church history dealt with one God who was the Lord Jesus Christ and only later was it rewritten and polished to include two different Gods.
So, in other words, you believe the Bible may have errors or "author creativity" within it? If so, then how do you know that anything within it is true or not? What do you use to test what you believe? (by the way, I agree that the Bible contains many errors).
Nephi wrote:I have to ask a speculative question to the OP. If Christ is the father, then who is Christ talking to when he is hung on the cross, or who is Christ talking to in the garden when he asked the cup be taken from his lips? I am not trying to troll here, I just have never been able to rectify an acceptable answer for these questions.
we don't know if these are Jesus's words. The author given the name Mark wrote a tale about a Jesus that caught on; other's copied and some wrote something a little different like the gospel of John. Some may say that early LDS church history dealt with one God who was the Lord Jesus Christ and only later was it rewritten and polished to include two different Gods.
So, in other words, you believe the Bible may have errors or "author creativity" within it? If so, then how do you know that anything within it is true or not? What do you use to test what you believe? (by the way, I agree that the Bible contains many errors).
you don't know and there is no way to know unless you can travel through time.
you don't know there is no way to know unless you can travel through time.
Would you please create a post for us, of roughly three paragraphs, on who the Holy Ghost is and what his role, or purpose, is in regards to us.
thanks
Gaz
The "Holy Ghost" may or maynot be in the Bible. It likely is the Holy Spirit and a friend of mine who I use to pass the sacrament with called it the Holy Spook. It reportedly came down after Christ ascended to heaven. It was reportedly in the Kirtland Temple. It is reportedly a companion to LDS members who are "worthy" to have it. It reportedly testifies to truth but then what is truth? If the latter-day apostles have the constant companion of the Holy Ghost then it seems they have some problems ascertaining the truth. I heard a report that after Mark Hoffman killed two people he met with Dallin Oaks. You would think that the apostle would have sensed something was wrong but the storyis that it was a normal meeting.
Now Gaz - you tell me what the Holy Ghost is to YOU without appealing to authority.