this is one of the reasons why religion is dangerous

[_The Nehor]

...Why Me...

grrr!

Sorry......my mind always switches those.

[_Jason Bourne]

But we have to look at cause and effect here.

Does atheism cause maniacs to slaughter millions? Are there certain 'beliefs' in atheism, that tell these maniacs that it's a good thing to do?

The lack of a threat, if you will, of punishment from a just and holy God, or the lack of morals and restraints that religion can provide does lead to the maniacs becoming what they become. A good thing to do? I am not sure it says that. But it certainly shapes the way the atheist dictator operates.

[_Who Knows]

...Why Me...

grrr!

Sorry......my mind always switches those.

Ok, apology accepted.

In answer to your question, no, it's not me. But I have a question for you. What on earth are you doing at place called boardgamegeek? Do you sit around and strategize about 'monopoly, or 'life' or 'sorry'? lol.

[_Who Knows]

The lack of a threat, if you will, of punishment from a just and holy God, or the lack of morals and restraints that religion can provide does lead to the maniacs becoming what they become. A good thing to do? I am not sure it says that. But it certainly shapes the way the atheist dictator operates.

Do you have anything to back that up? Who says lack of belief in god leads to the maniacs "becoming what they become"? Could it be, that they're simply just 'maniacs'? Like any other maniac - religious or not?

[_Jason Bourne]

The lack of a threat, if you will, of punishment from a just and holy God, or the lack of morals and restraints that religion can provide does lead to the maniacs becoming what they become. A good thing to do? I am not sure it says that. But it certainly shapes the way the atheist dictator operates.

Do you have anything to back that up? Who says lack of belief in god leads to the maniacs "becoming what they become"? Could it be, that they're simply just 'maniacs'? Like any other maniac - religious or not?

Cause and effect. Look at Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and on and on. Had they had moral religious groundings would they have become what they became? I do not know for sure. However, the system Stalin supported was systematically atheistic. Are you arguing that this had nothing at all to do with his ease and comfort in slaughtering his fellow men and women?

[_Sethbag]

Cause and effect. Look at Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and on and on. Had they had moral religious groundings would they have become what they became? I do not know for sure. However, the system Stalin supported was systematically atheistic. Are you arguing that this had nothing at all to do with his ease and comfort in slaughtering his fellow men and women?

I guess it depends on how seriously they took the Old Testament. If they took it as literally as the JWs take the "no blood" thing, we might have had a Stalin who had people killed for flicking on a light switch on the Sabbath, for talking back to their parents, for having premarital sex or committing adultery, or we might have had a Stalin go and take over cities and slaughter every man, woman, child, dog, cat, and chicken, because their land had been "promised" to him by a voice in his head. He might have instituted slavery, and allowed slaveholders to have sex at will with their slave girls. He might have had all homosexuals killed. I guess a heck of a lot might have been possible had Stalin been predisposed to take the Old Testament as a literal and desirable pattern by which to base his tyrannical regime.

[_silentkid]

Cause and effect. Look at Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and on and on. Had they had moral religious groundings would they have become what they became? I do not know for sure. However, the system Stalin supported was systematically atheistic. Are you arguing that this had nothing at all to do with his ease and comfort in slaughtering his fellow men and women?

Look at the inquisition, look at the holy wars, look at the situation in the Middle East today. This is a tit for tat argument, Jason. I can't provide numbers on how many people have been killed in the name of religion. You can't provide numbers on how many people have been killed in the name of atheism. Tit for tat. I agree with Sethbag here. Maniacs are maniacs, whether religious or not. Their non-belief in god is not necessarily a factor in their behavior. There are plenty of perfectly normal, peaceful atheists who live ethically and never become maniacs to counter your argument. The JW blood transfusion situation, on the other hand, is a clear cut example of how a religious idea can be harmful.

[_dartagnan]

That could possibly be right, but I dispute that the tenets of atheism actually underpinned the acts of Stalin or anyone else

And I dispute that the tenets of "religion in general" are in any sense "dangerous" to society. One might as well attack conviction and honor, since many people have given their lives for these causes just the same.

Stalin may have been an atheist, but that's no more causal to his actions than that he probably ate carrots within six months of his death. Atheism is the lack of a belief that there is a God. Period.

Of course, but then you have to account for the fact that the higher percentage of atheistic rulers were tyrants, when compared to theistic rulers. How do you account for this? If I take your own standard I could argue that a lack of belief is more dangerous than belief itself.

theism, which implies a Theistic authority outside of the bounds of human authority and morality, and reason, and the implication that ancient scriptures such as the Old Testament represent the Divine Will and ought to be followed

Again, you're generalizing and not considering the fact that most theists are not violent. By definition, religion is generally harmless, while only occasionally is it related in any way to violence. Most theists do not pose a danger to the world. I think that by percentage, atheists with power have posed more a threat to the world than theists in power. What's dangerous is an extreme interpretation of theism the same way atheists can take their own lack of belief to the extreme.

I was in fact talking about religion in general (read the title of the thread) in that religion in general cultivates the kind of mindset that self-destructive practices based on the writings of Bronze Age goatherder morality and mythology as desirable and even admirable

Well, then, two can play at that game. I hereby generalize that atheism poses a threat because it cultivates a mindset that there is no moral judgment or consequences to be anticipated, therefore let's act like the animals we are and do whatever we want.

If the Book of Mormon said something about no blood transfusions, Mormons would be right there with the JWs in sending their kids to an early grave by telling them it was better to die clean and pure than be defiled and made unworthy breaking God's commandments.

You assume all things are equal in religion, which is pretty much a reductionist approach. Some religions take scripture more literally than others. The JWs base their doctrine on a really screwed up interpretation of a single verse that said not to eat blood. Billions of other theists reject this interpretation.

I don't think it's relevant because atheism represents only the lack in belief of a God, period.

Which only proves a lack of belief can be just as problematic and even more dangerous than belief itself.

Any other belief that served to rationalize the killings of Stalin or Chairman Mao or whatever was not atheism, it was something else

You're missing the point. A lack of belief in a higher power puts humans in a different position when they are placed in positions to choose between committing a crime or refraining from one. Stalin's political aspirations were not bound my moral standards or a sense of judgment because he had no belief in anything.

[_The Dude]

When I saw your thread title I thought for sure it was about the thousands of Sudaneese who want the execution of a British school teacher:

KHARTOUM, Sudan - Thousands of Sudanese, many armed with clubs and knives, rallied Friday in a central square and demanded the execution of a British teacher convicted of insulting Islam for allowing her students to name a teddy bear "Muhammad."

...

The protesters streamed out of mosques after Friday sermons, as pickup trucks with loudspeakers blared messages against Gibbons, who was sentenced Thursday to 15 days in prison and deportation. She avoided the more serious punishment of 40 lashes.

...

They called for Gibbons' execution, saying, "No tolerance: Execution," and "Kill her, kill her by firing squad.

...

"Imprisoning this lady does not satisfy the thirst of Muslims in Sudan. But we welcome imprisonment and expulsion," the cleric, Abdul-Jalil Nazeer al-Karouri, a well-known hard-liner, told worshippers.

"This an arrogant woman who came to our country, cashing her salary in dollars, teaching our children hatred of our Prophet Muhammad," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071130/ap_ ... sh_teacher

[_silentkid]

A lack of belief in a higher power puts humans in a different position when they are placed in positions to choose between committing a crime or refraining from one.

This is a ridiculous statement. I have the same concern for my fellow man as an atheist as I did when I believed in a higher power. You have no way of backing up this position.