What constitutes proof?

[_JAK]

My experiences would have to be classified under a sixth sense also, because no emotion is what I experienced.

Charity, how would you, personally, define the difference between revelation and emotion?

That's easy. Revelation is knowledge which originates externally. Emotion is an internally generated mental state.

Charity,

Scientific research is external. Claims of “revelation” are internal. You have it precisely backward.

Muslims who go on suicide bombings claim they had “revelation” and follow the indoctrination which their religion has brainwashed them to believe.

That process is not different than indoctrination in any of the many hundreds of Christian doctrines which Christians claim (as you do) are revelation.

It’s an emotional high for the religiously indoctrinated. It's not in the slightest "external" as you claim.

JAK

[_Ray A]

JAK, what do you think of this report:

The American Psychological Association (APA):
Philip G Zimbardo, PhD wrote an article during 1990 for the APA Monitor titled: "What messages are behind today’s cults?" 1 He is professor of psychology at Stanford University and a former APA president. Some excerpts from his article are:

"Cult methods of recruiting, indoctrinating and influencing their members are not exotic forms of mind control, but only more intensely applied mundane tactics of social influence practiced daily by all compliance professionals and societal agents of influence."
"...cult leaders offer simple solutions to the increasingly complex world problems we all face daily. They offer the simple path to happiness, to success, to salvation by following their simple rules, simple group regimentation and simple total lifestyle. Ultimately, each new member contributes to the power of the leader by trading his or her freedom for the illusion of security and reflected glory that group membership holds out."
"Cult mind control is not different in kind from these everyday varieties, but in its greater intensity, persistence, duration, and scope."

Ronald Enroth wrote in 1994:

"The American Psychological Association, along with nearly two dozen individual scholars and behavioral scientists, filed an amicus [friend of the court] brief in 1987 in behalf of the Unification Church in the California Supreme Court. ... The APA and its co-amici argued that there was little scientific support for 'brainwashing' theory. Both the National Council of Churches and the Christian Legal Society filed briefs in this same case." 11

http://www.religioustolerance.org/brain_wa.htm

[_JAK]

I have heard it postulated that some people are born with a much greater ability to sense spiritual phenomena. These are the mystics. If that's true, and if it's also true that a spiritual witness is the God-designed method of obtaining and verifying truth, all I can say is that it's incredibly unfair.

I "tried my guts out" for a long time in an effort to get that feeling, and what I got didn't come anywhere close to the 'witness' that is spoken of by some people. It was no more than the good feeling that comes on many other occasions, and I'm quite certain that it was self-generated.

Krose,

Does it occur to you that these people may be so victimized by brainwashing that they have come to believe their own religious dogma?

Your problem is that you think. In religion and religious dogma, thinking is generally prohibited.

If one makes a real academic study of the evolution of religious doctrines and beliefs, one has great difficulty coming to the conclusion that one and only one[/b] of these many religious [i]God boxes is right.

Your correct that the feeling are/were self-generated. I suspect, you were indoctrinated by religious dogma. If you were, you have somehow managed to transcend that when others are unable to do so.

JAK

[_BishopRic]

My experiences would have to be classified under a sixth sense also, because no emotion is what I experienced.

Charity, how would you, personally, define the difference between revelation and emotion?

That's easy. Revelation is knowledge which originates externally. Emotion is an internally generated mental state.

But it is experienced internally. That is the ONLY way humans perceive anything. Studies show that when the brain is triggered by an event, it reacts exactly the same way, whether it happened "outside" or "inside."

So, the real question for you is "how do you know the experience originates externally?"

[_JAK]

My experiences would have to be classified under a sixth sense also, because no emotion is what I experienced.

Charity, how would you, personally, define the difference between revelation and emotion?

That's easy. Revelation is knowledge which originates externally. Emotion is an internally generated mental state.

But it is experienced internally. That is the ONLY way humans perceive anything. Studies show that when the brain is triggered by an event, it reacts exactly the same way, whether it happened "outside" or "inside."

So, the real question for you is "how do you know the experience originates externally?"

Also the question for Charity is: How can she secure an objective, analytical view coming from a position of having been indoctrinated in the dogma of a specific slant on Christianity?

JAK

[_BishopRic]

JAK, what do you think of this report:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/brain_wa.htm

An excerpt I found interesting:

"Beliefs promoted by the Anti-cult Movement:

Many individuals in the Anti-cult Movement (ACM) have attempted to raise public consciousness about what they perceive to be a major public threat, mainly to youth and young adults. They believe that many NRMs (new religious movements) are profoundly evil. These groups, which they call "cults" are seen as:

*Recruiting large numbers of young people into their religious groups, by using deceptive techniques.
*Subjecting them to severe mind-control processes that were first developed in communist countries, and subsequently developed by *NRMs to a much higher level of refinement.
*Destroying their followers' ability to think critically and to make independent decisions.
*Endangering their followers. Many groups have induced their members to commit suicide.

Many in the ACM see NRMs as being particularly efficient in attracting normal, intelligent older teens and young adults, and convincing them to:

* Donate major amounts of time and effort to the group,
* Uncritically accept its teachings,
* Conform to their behavioral restrictions and
* Make a permanent commitment to remain in the NRM.

Extensive confirmation for these beliefs has come from disillusioned former NRM members. A small minority of those psychologists who specialize in the mind-control field also support the ACM's conclusions. "

I know this is derailing the thread a bit (since it's mine, maybe I can do that....), and it belongs on the cult thread, but is it possible that the "Mormon mind" is so programmed to perceive certain feelings as "spiritual," that they literally cannot recognize it is nothing more than a feeling?

[_krose]

Krose,

Does it occur to you that these people may be so victimized by brainwashing that they have come to believe their own religious dogma?

Your problem is that you think. In religion and religious dogma, thinking is generally prohibited.

If one makes a real academic study of the evolution of religious doctrines and beliefs, one has great difficulty coming to the conclusion that one and only one[/b] of these many religious [I]God boxes is right.

Your correct that the feeling are/were self-generated. I suspect, you were indoctrinated by religious dogma. If you were, you have somehow managed to transcend that when others are unable to do so.

JAK

Well sure, that's exactly the conclusion I came to years ago... that the source of 'testimony' feelings is internal, and that testimony itself is a form of self deception.

However, since all I know for certain is my own experience, I cannot completely rule out the possibility that some believers might have been given a witness that was denied me and others. In that case, which I think is unlikely, the designer of such a system is a real jerkwad.

[_Ray A]

but is it possible that the "Mormon mind" is so programmed to perceive certain feelings as "spiritual," that they literally cannot recognize it is nothing more than a feeling?

I can't speak for Mormons, and I'd rather not give a hypothesis about other Mormons here. But from reading through my detailed journals this week I know that what I perceived to be revelation was not revelation. In fact the very opposite of what I felt is what occurred. The impression I have from the re-reading, and I have to say frankly that it stunned me, it's impossible to distinguish between revelation and emotion. I have had occasions where I accurately predicted outcomes to certain events, but if I weigh this carefully it could also be the result of reasoning. I do think people can have intuition. You think of someone you haven't heard from for 20 years, they are on your mind for some unknown reason, then you get a phone call from them. That sort of thing. I have had lots of such intuition, but I'm not sure what the answer to this is. Experienced cab drivers like me also know when trouble is around the corner, and who not to pick up. When starting out, however, as new drivers, we make many mistakes and pick up the "wrong" people and end up in trouble. It takes time to develop this "sixth sense", but it's no mystery. You simply learn to read body language better, from far off, and you "instinctively" or "intuitively" know who not to pick up. Works nine out of ten times, but for an inexperienced driver - they live and eventually learn.

[_The Nehor]

I have heard it postulated that some people are born with a much greater ability to sense spiritual phenomena. These are the mystics. If that's true, and if it's also true that a spiritual witness is the God-designed method of obtaining and verifying truth, all I can say is that it's incredibly unfair.

I "tried my guts out" for a long time in an effort to get that feeling, and what I got didn't come anywhere close to the 'witness' that is spoken of by some people. It was no more than the good feeling that comes on many other occasions, and I'm quite certain that it was self-generated.

Where did you get the twisted idea that LDS believe life (independent of everything else) is fair? We have a pervasive explanation regarding how and why people's abilities differ.

[_The Nehor]

Also the question for Charity is: How can she secure an objective, analytical view coming from a position of having been indoctrinated in the dogma of a specific slant on Christianity?

Maybe she used rationality. JAK, still waiting for that report on your mental state. You accused me of mental problems and I denied them. Do you have any? Just pointing out that it's possible her mental state is better than yours......

Just a thought.