Jason Bourne wrote:Not withstanding your condescension I am actually quite well read on this topic. Well enough to know your spin is exactly that. Henry entered into plural marriage based on the idea that what was good for the goose was good enough for him. Brigham had already claimed Zina for his own before Henry went on this mission. Henry took a wife perhaps in a moment of hoping for revenge. Goodness knows the poor fellow had been a dupe to Joesph and Brigham over this issue. I am sure when he learned his wife had moved in with Brigham it broke his heart. It is sad indeed that you are to hard to consider that just perhaps Henry was a victim here.
Jason, with all due respect, how can you reach these conclusions and yet continue to hold such persons as "God's chosen?"
I mean, what more evidence do you need that this is all man-made? How obvious does it have to be?
What institution truly borne of God, and what men truly called of God, engage in this type of dispicable behavior?
God . . . "who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, . . . and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him ..."
Jason Bourne wrote:Not withstanding your condescension I am actually quite well read on this topic. Well enough to know your spin is exactly that. Henry entered into plural marriage based on the idea that what was good for the goose was good enough for him. Brigham had already claimed Zina for his own before Henry went on this mission. Henry took a wife perhaps in a moment of hoping for revenge. Goodness knows the poor fellow had been a dupe to Joesph and Brigham over this issue. I am sure when he learned his wife had moved in with Brigham it broke his heart. It is sad indeed that you are to hard to consider that just perhaps Henry was a victim here.
Jason, with all due respect, how can you reach these conclusions and yet continue to hold such persons as "God's chosen?"
I mean, what more evidence do you need that this is all man-made? How obvious does it have to be?
What institution truly borne of God, and what men truly called of God, engage in this type of dispicable behavior?
Because Jason is one of the following:
1. A long-time troll, pretending to be a faithful member of the Church but who is not. If this is the case, he is dishonest.
2. A person who lives a large segment of his life (I call, his "Physical Face Amoung Friends Life") inconsistent with his real beliefs. He leads others to believe what he does not. If this is the case, he is dishonest, and I really don't care the rationale for doing so.
3. Gee, there are no other options, are there? He should be like Peter Danzig, and walk and talk the walk, rather than skulk.
rcrocket wrote:Because Jason is one of the following:
1. A long-time troll, pretending to be a faithful member of the Church but who is not. If this is the case, he is dishonest.
2. A person who lives a large segment of his life (I call, his "Physical Face Amoung Friends Life") inconsistent with his real beliefs. He leads others to believe what he does not. If this is the case, he is dishonest, and I really don't care the rationale for doing so.
3. Gee, there are no other options, are there? He should be like Peter Danzig, and walk and talk the walk, rather than skulk.
I see Jason as someone who struggles with certain issues but isn't willing to completely throw out the church over those issues. There are a lot of people like Jason in the church. Maybe we can get Will Schryver to purge them for us. :)
What I think Mr. Bob underestimates is exactly how many people doubt. I can say 100% for certain that the church doesn't want people walking the church corridors expounding on all the things that they doubt, don't understand, and/or just flat out don't agree with in the church. Even the most uber-TBM secretly has things on the shelf. Everyone does. And the church wants you to keep completely silent on those issues at church. It likes it that way. It goes out of its way even to make sure that all lessons, talks, and other meetings stear clear of any possible controversial things. Milk before Milk, and then some more Milk. All washed down with a tall, frosty glass of Milk.
So I just find it funny that Bob thinks Jason should just go around the church with loudspeaker making sure everyone knows exactly what he thinks. I think he has even gone above and beyond by talking to the bishop and sp about his situation. That is integrity in my book. At least in online persona, Jason seems like a very reasonable guy with an even approach. I don't understand why Bob is on his case so much, unless Bob is the troll trying to make normal Mormons look weird. Which is certainly within the realm of possibility.
“A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take away everything that you have.”
Black Moclips wrote:What I think Mr. Bob underestimates is exactly how many people doubt. I can say 100% for certain that the church doesn't want people walking the church corridors expounding on all the things that they doubt, don't understand, and/or just flat out don't agree with in the church. Even the most uber-TBM secretly has things on the shelf. Everyone does. And the church wants you to keep completely silent on those issues at church. It likes it that way. It goes out of its way even to make sure that all lessons, talks, and other meetings stear clear of any possible controversial things. Milk before Milk, and then some more Milk. All washed down with a tall, frosty glass of Milk.
So I just find it funny that Bob thinks Jason should just go around the church with loudspeaker making sure everyone knows exactly what he thinks. I think he has even gone above and beyond by talking to the bishop and sp about his situation. That is integrity in my book. At least in online persona, Jason seems like a very reasonable guy with an even approach. I don't understand why Bob is on his case so much, unless Bob is the troll trying to make normal Mormons look weird. Which is certainly within the realm of possibility.
Bob seems to be of the mind that one is either in or out, for or against. For whatever reason, it offends him that not everyone fits into this facile dichotomy. Thus I'm the self-loathing apostate, whereas Jason is a liar hiding his true feelings. God help the church if all the doubters actually start talking about their doubts publicly. There wouldn't be very many people left.
Runtu wrote:Bob seems to be of the mind that one is either in or out, for or against. For whatever reason, it offends him that not everyone fits into this facile dichotomy. Thus I'm the self-loathing apostate, whereas Jason is a liar hiding his true feelings. God help the church if all the doubters actually start talking about their doubts publicly. There wouldn't be very many people left.
Your statement about what I think is certainly not true. I hold lots of room for doubters, for self-loathers, for the unhappy and persons unsatisfied with their faith, their Christianity, or their Mormonism. Christianity is the home for such, for in Christ we see our weaknesses and we become the sons of God through the Mediation.
I do, however, believe in a set of ethical norms -- be they divinely derived or evolutionary. As Prof. Sajer points out, those who believe one way and do another have something wrong with either what they believe or what they do.
And, I have never claimed to be perfect and in fact am not.
rcrocket wrote:Your statement about what I think is certainly not true. I hold lots of room for doubters, for self-loathers, for the unhappy and persons unsatisfied with their faith, their Christianity, or their Mormonism. Christianity is the home for such, for in Christ we see our weaknesses and we become the sons of God through the Mediation.
I do, however, believe in a set of ethical norms -- be they divinely derived or evolutionary. As Prof. Sajer points out, those who believe one way and do another have something wrong with either what they believe or what they do.
And, I have never claimed to be perfect and in fact am not.
I guess I don't see Jason as believing one thing and doing another. Do you?