What do you or don't you believe?

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_Chap
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Post by _Chap »

dartagnan wrote:The fact that Einstein despises the concept of the traditional gods doesn't change the fact that he does believe there is divine intelligence behind the creation of the Universe.


Almost any fact about the way Einstein regarded the cosmos is interesting.

If it is something he said about physics, it is interesting because it is quite likely to be true (though not always).

If it is something he said about (say) theology, it is interesting because it tells us something about the relations of a great mind to the cultural assumptions it finds in its surroundings.

dartagnan wrote:So do I.


There is little reason to be interested in that statement unless one is a close friend of dartagnan. It certainly does not gain in interest because of any connection that may or may not be drawn with the way Einstein talked.
_JAK
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Richard Dawkins on Einstein

Post by _JAK »

dartagnan wrote:Again, beastie doesn't believe a divine intelligence exists, whereas Einstein does. Period.


Again,

For Beastie --> Science doesn't reveal an intelligent creator of the universe
For Einstein --> Science does reveal an intelligent creator of the universe

This is important because atheists almost always rely on science to argue against God, and Einstein knew as much about science as anyone who ever lived.

No, beastie doesn't believe in an anthropomorphic God, but that goes without saying since she doesn't believe any God exists. Hence, her similarity with Einstein is as superficial and meaningless as my similarity with Dawkins.

The fact that Einstein despises the concept of the traditional gods doesn't change the fact that he does believe there is divine intelligence behind the creation of the Universe. So do I. That is the fundamental premise of any theist. Attacking theological theism does nothing to discredit natural theism. This is the problem so many of the New Atheists have, and it seems to drive some of them nuts, like Dawkins. So much so that they're willing to perform all sorts of mental gynmastics and even lie, to make it sound like Einstein is in any way a follower or supporter of their anti-theist arguments from science.


According to Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion, “One of Einstein’s most eagerly quoted remarks is ‘Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind’.”

Dawkins further states: “In greater numbers since his death, religious apologists understandably try to claim Einstein is one of their own.”

Dawkins continues: “In 1940, Einstein wrote a famous paper justifying his statement ‘I do not believe in a personal God.’ This and similar statements provoked a storm of letters from the religiously orthodox, many of them alluding to Einstein’s Jewish origins.” (Page 16 The God Delusion).

Dawkins continues: “There is every reason to think that famous Einsteinisms like ‘God is subtle but he is not malicious’ or ‘He does not play dice’ or ‘Did God have a choice in creating the Universe?’ means ‘Could the universe have begun in any other way?’ Einstein was using ‘God’ in a purely metaphorical, poetic sense. So is Stephen Hawking, and so are most of those physicists who occasionally slip into the language of religious metaphor.”

In the next paragraph, Dawkins writes: “Let me sum up Einsteinian religion in one more quotation from Einstein himself: ‘To sense that behind anything than can be experienced there is something that our mind cannot grasp and whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly and as a feeble reflection, this is religiousness. In this sense I am religious.’ In this sense I too am religious, with the reservation that ‘cannot grasp’ does not have to mean ‘forever ungraspable’. But I prefer not to call myself religious because it is misleading. It is destructively misleading because, for the vast majority of people, ‘religion’ implies ‘supernatural’. Carl Sagan put it well: ‘…if by God one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying …it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity.’” (Page 19 The God Delusion).

If Dawkins is correct, Einstein did not “believe in a divine intelligence” as you have claimed. On pages 16,17, & 18, Dawkins cites various religious pundits who expressed “regret” that Einstein rejected divine intelligence as religion asserted it then and as religion asserts it today.

The nearly 400 page book The God Delusion is organized, rationally explicit, and does not rely on “…all sorts of mental gymnastics …” as you claim. It contains an extensive appendix and notes.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

There is little reason to be interested in that statement unless one is a close friend of dartagnan.

What the hell? The guy started a thread asking an open question. This suggests to me an interest in everyone's opinion.
It certainly does not gain in interest because of any connection that may or may not be drawn with the way Einstein talked.

Huh? I simply noted that I have been influenced by Einstein's view of the universe and its creation.

What's the crime here?

What makes my agreement with Einstein's belief that a divine intelligence is behind the design of the Universe, any less "interesting" than beastie's agreement that God isn't anthrompmorphic?
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

LOL.. I was wondering with the Dawkins nuts would arrive and cite his book. When marg appears, JAK is always the next to show up:

According to Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion, “One of Einstein’s most eagerly quoted remarks is ‘Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind’.”


McGrath and Flew have already noted that Dawkins was wrong about this. I provide many citations in another thread where Dawkins avoids context and ignore comments Einstein made that undermine his agenda. Dawkins has essentially lied on this point. Why rely on Dawkins when you could rely on a guy who was a close associate (Jammer) of Einstein?

In a nutshell, Dawkins takes comments Einstein makes against traditional religions, and assumes this implies a rejection of theism as a whole. It works to fool simple minds who are adherents to the new atheism. But Einstein admitted that the Universe tells us it was created by a divine intelligence. Or at least, that is what it tells him.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_marg

Post by _marg »

dartagnan wrote:I lean towards natural theology, and agree with just about everything Einstein had to say about God. Maybe I should start my own church teaching Einsteinism. ;)


Do you lean towards a non-interfering in mankind sort of God or an interfering in mankind sort of God? Are you a Christian and if so do you believe in a Jesus who was or is in part divine/of God?
_Moniker
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Post by _Moniker »

Welcome to the board, mudcat!

I'm a never-mo, and never a believer in any organized religion -- although I've attended various denominations. I am currently a very comfortable agnostic atheist. I'm apathetic about religion at times, other times I can find some of the sentiments gloriously beautiful, and just as often I may recoil from beliefs or those that say they are believers.

I thought your story was interesting and thanks for sharing it. I've read of many stories of those that felt they turned their lives about because of the forgiveness qualities of Christianity. That is actually one thing that I find quite lovely about Christianity in general.
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
_dartagnan
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Post by _dartagnan »

Do you lean towards a non-interfering in mankind sort of God


Yes. And everything we have learned about evolution has all but destroyed the anthropomorphic qualities attributed to traditional gods. In fact I would say this hurts Mormonism more than any other faith because Mormons are unique in believing God is actually the "same species" as mankind, and that he is an anthropomorphic being; not only in the emotional or psychological senses, but in the metaphysical and biological senses as well.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_bcspace
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Post by _bcspace »

Yes. And everything we have learned about evolution has all but destroyed the anthropomorphic qualities attributed to traditional gods. In fact I would say this hurts Mormonism more than any other faith because Mormons are unique in believing God is actually the "same species" as mankind, and that he is an anthropomorphic being; not only in the emotional or psychological senses, but in the metaphysical and biological senses as well.


I don't see how this hurts at all, especially if the Gods are an end product.
Machina Sublime
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_marg

Post by _marg »

dartagnan wrote:
Do you lean towards a non-interfering in mankind sort of God


Yes. And everything we have learned about evolution has all but destroyed the anthropomorphic qualities attributed to traditional gods. In fact I would say this hurts Mormonism more than any other faith because Mormons are unique in believing God is actually the "same species" as mankind, and that he is an anthropomorphic being; not only in the emotional or psychological senses, but in the metaphysical and biological senses as well.


Actually I don't think evolution destroys an anthropomorphic god. Such a God could have started the ball rolling(of life) so to speak.

So you are a deist? Then you are not a Christian?

Edit...I see what you mean re "anthropomorphic"..I wasn't thinking. However, evolution doesn't do away with a God.
Last edited by _marg on Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
_msnobody
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Post by _msnobody »

Thanks for sharing that Mudcat. I guess I'd be referred to as one of the evangelicals on board. The Lord pierced my heart when I was probably in the fifth or sixth grade. Sowed some wild oats later on and then several years back the Lord reeled me back in. Welcome to MDB.
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