gramps wrote:Seems to be a little more than just a prayer, Nevo and Nehor. At least, they seem to think that they are the Lord's arm, if you will, to get the job done. Don't they?
Yes, they do seem to. But they don't actually do anything thing about it, do they? Ultimately, they, like everyone else, left vengeance to God.
Well, that is the big argument, isn't it? But, it doesn't seem the new book deals with this issue, does it? Coupled with BY's statement at the rock cairn, it seems like some vengeance was taken, without God doing a single bit of the dirty work.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil... Adrian Beverland
The Nehor wrote:Vengeance is mine saith the Lord and I will repay.
The oath was to pray for justice and that the blood of Joseph Smith and the rest of the blood of the Saints would be avenged by God. I was taught to pray for justice when I am oppressed and when someone has wronged me and to pray for justice for all such oppressions.
Very interesting... do you have ancestors who participated in the temple rituals and covenants prior to 1927?
Is this prayer something you learned from your parents or grandparents?
td
Yes, but I doubt that's where it came from. My great-grandfather was too young to go to the Temple at that time. I somehow doubt it was something that was passed down. I get the impression that when my parents taught me this it was to help me overcome feelings of hostility and anger using basic scriptural principles. If you throw your burdens at the Lord's feet (even your desire for vengeance/justice) you give it to the perfect judge and can let him sort it out. Then with the burden of trying to enforce justice gone you can focus more on getting over the huge hurdle of loving your enemies and doing good to those who use and persecute you.
I've been in a situation where someone made choices intentionally designed to destroy my life. In the end, I prayed to God to end this problem as I could do nothing legally and by the laws of God I was forbidden to do what I wanted to do. It ended. I thanked God.
One of my favorite stories about dealing with your enemies is the apocryphal story of a debate between Peter and Simon Magus. Peter ended up winning and the people (caught up in their zeal) grabbed Simon to put him to death for his apostasy and false teachings. Peter forbid them to do so saying that Simon's life was in God's hands, not theirs. If God was willing to tolerate this stumbling block then mortals have no right to try to overrule him.
I pray when I'm oppressed or troubled by someone but I don't generally suggest solutions to God. I just ask him to come up with a way out whether that involves him giving me a way out or him acting entirely without my involvement.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
I have never heard of praying for vengeance, maybe it is because I am a convert and this is only taught in families, passed down or otherwise. (As opposed to an actual teaching in the LDS church and temple as it once was).
Gramps... thanks for sharing those quotes. It does sound like the oaths were not just some hope that God would take care of things. :-)
And, yes, to leave out the oaths and covenants to which early early members agreed regarding the MMM is completely inappropriate as in my opinion.
td
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
I have never heard of praying for vengeance, maybe it is because I am a convert and this is only taught in families, passed down or otherwise. (As opposed to an actual teaching in the LDS church and temple as it once was).
Gramps... thanks for sharing those quotes. It does sound like the oaths were not just some hope that God would take care of things. :-)
And, yes, to leave out the oaths and covenants to which early early members agreed regarding the MMM is completely inappropriate as in my opinion.
td
I checked when I saw my parents last night. It wasn't passed down. My father learned it from the scriptures. His father didn't teach it to him and my grandfather and grandmother on that side were converts so they couldn't have gotten it that way. On my mother's side it could have theoretically been passed down but she had never heard of this until my dad found it and shared scriptures about it with her. Sorry, I guess what I learned has nothing to do with this topic.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
Well, since no one has come forth to confirm...I'll just assume that at least some of those who covenanted to continue the teaching until the forth generation are actually doing so and holding to their covenant, hence, the teaching is alive and well with some members.
:-(
Sounds creepy.
td
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
truth dancer wrote:Well, since no one has come forth to confirm...I'll just assume that at least some of those who covenanted to continue the teaching until the forth generation are actually doing so and holding to their covenant, hence, the teaching is alive and well with some members.
:-(
Sounds creepy.
td
On the basis of a sample size of less then ten active, believing Mormons who come to this board (assuming they all read your thread which is doubtful) you're going to take a random theory and assume it proved because no one confirmed it? You do realize this means you're mad, right?
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
On the basis of a sample size of less then ten active, believing Mormons who come to this board (assuming they all read your thread which is doubtful) you're going to take a random theory and assume it proved because no one confirmed it? You do realize this means you're mad, right?
No... I'm going with the idea that LDS believers, for the most part take their covenants seriously.
If faithful members covenanted with God, I'm guessing at least some of them abide the covenant.
There are many members who have ancestors three or four generations back who took the covenant to teach their children these teachings... unless all those faithful members are disobedient and broke their covenants the teaching is still alive and well in some families.
And Nehor... I'm not the one who thinks God is talking to me. I'm not the one who takes delight in cruelty. I'm not the one who finds harming others "hillarious".
td
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
On the basis of a sample size of less then ten active, believing Mormons who come to this board (assuming they all read your thread which is doubtful) you're going to take a random theory and assume it proved because no one confirmed it? You do realize this means you're mad, right?
No... I'm going with the idea that LDS believers, for the most part take their covenants seriously.
If faithful members covenanted with God, I'm guessing at least some of them abide the covenant.
There are many members who have ancestors three or four generations back who took the covenant to teach their children these teachings... unless all those faithful members are disobedient and broke their covenants the teaching is still alive and well in some families.
And Nehor... I'm not the one who thinks God is talking to me. I'm not the one who takes delight in cruelty. I'm not the one who finds harming others "hillarious".
td
I still think you're mad. You come looking for evidence and then with none to support you and some against it you conclude it's true.
As for me being mad, I accept that, you still need to:
"'But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked. 'Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: 'we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.' 'How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice 'You must be' said the Cat 'or you wouldn't have come here'"
At least I've accepted it.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo