Question for Atheists: Abortion

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_asbestosman
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Re: Question for Atheists: Abortion

Post by _asbestosman »

The Dude wrote:Plus, since they are already sterile, this has no aspect that could be called eugenic or dysgenic.

Edit: actually males are sterile but females can have kids that are 50% likely to inherit the syndrome.

Interesting, but I would still consider the systematic killing of any infertile people to be wrong for the same reasons that I find eugenic or dysgenic practices to be scary. That said, I understand that many do not see personhood as beginning at conception. I did, however think that your view was once that personhood might start when the brain starts to form. Isn't that before the 1st trimester (i.e. before Amniocentesis)? Maybe I misremember / misunderstood.
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_collegeterrace
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Re: Question for Atheists: Abortion

Post by _collegeterrace »

asbestosman wrote:How does your view apply to the elderly when they get alzheimer's or dementia?
An old human has time invested with society, a fetus does not.
... our church isn't true, but we have to keep up appearances so we don't get shunned by our friends and family, fired from our jobs, kicked out of our homes, ... Please don't tell on me. ~maklelan
_collegeterrace
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Re: Question for Atheists: Abortion

Post by _collegeterrace »

cksalmon wrote:
antishock8 wrote:However, I don't see anything wrong with ending the life of a retarded baby. Why? The family or state that will have to raise it will be severely hampered in its pursuit of happiness and well-being.

Ah, the self-exalting joy of a utilitarian morality. This really is one of the most disgusting comments I've read here on MDB. Message: life can be justifiably discarded if his or her continued existence threatens to impinge upon my own personal happiness and well-being.

How on earth did we get to this point?

If you have (more?) children in future, I (truly) hope to God none of them strike you as inconveniently "retarded." Moreover, if at all within the realm of the possible, I'd adopt "it"--my personal "pursuit of happiness and well-being" be damned. Which, outside the appropriate target, it will be.
CK, how many children have you fathered?
... our church isn't true, but we have to keep up appearances so we don't get shunned by our friends and family, fired from our jobs, kicked out of our homes, ... Please don't tell on me. ~maklelan
_dartagnan
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Re: Question for Atheists: Abortion

Post by _dartagnan »

An old human has time invested with society, a fetus does not.

And?

If the old human doesn't know anything then by the logic expressed by atheists, he's "better off dead" just the same as a DS baby.

Hey duder. I once asked you where you drew the line between fetus and human life, and you never gave an answer. At what point is abortion unacceptable in your eyes?

I started this thread out of a genuine curiosity if our resident atheists agreed with the nimrod mentioned in the article.
“All knowledge of reality starts from experience and ends in it...Propositions arrived at by purely logical means are completely empty as regards reality." - Albert Einstein
_The Dude
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Re: Question for Atheists: Abortion

Post by _The Dude »

asbestosman wrote:nteresting, but I would still consider the systematic killing of any infertile people to be wrong for the same reasons that I find eugenic or dysgenic practices to be scary.


Oh, I wouldn't say "Kill the females because they might spread their diseased chromosome 21, but let the males live because they are infertile." I might suggest sterilizing the females, but never killing them.

That said, I understand that many do not see personhood as beginning at conception. I did, however think that your view was once that personhood might start when the brain starts to form. Isn't that before the 1st trimester (i.e. before Amniocentesis)? Maybe I misremember / misunderstood.


I do not believe personhood begins at conception.

I do not believe that there is a moment of stark personhood once the neuroectoderm develops in an embryo. In this case there is the precondition of severe genetic damage, and I have also mentioned the possibility of things worse than Down's Syndrome. What then? If the embryo has a genetic makeup that gives it only a 1% chance of achieving somebody's definition of productive, should it always get the pass into life or could it sometimes be shunted aside to give another a chance to be human? We have the ability to make these decisions. I don't think we must always give in to nature's or god's lottery because of a line we drew long ago.

I would say it depends on the individual couple. Maybe this is their last shot at a baby and they want to try to raise a very disabled human, and maybe they have the resources to take care of it no matter what. Maybe that was Sarah Palin. Cool. On the other hand, maybe they don't have the will to bear such a burden, or give it up to the larger family/church/state apparatus. Maybe they only have room for one child in their plans, and would rather do it over ASAP. At 4 months of gestation the organism has no idea, even if it already has as many functional neurons as a cockroach or a lizard.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
_The Dude
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Re: Question for Atheists: Abortion

Post by _The Dude »

dartagnan wrote:Hey duder. I once asked you where you drew the line between fetus and human life, and you never gave an answer.


That must have been because I am afraid of you.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
_collegeterrace
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Re: Question for Atheists: Abortion

Post by _collegeterrace »

dartagnan wrote:
An old human has time invested with society, a fetus does not.

And?

If the old human doesn't know anything then by the logic expressed by atheists, he's "better off dead" just the same as a DS baby.

The old human may have money being spent on their care which supports the healthcare and pharmaceutical industry. The fetus has no IRAs, 401Ks, stocks, mutual funds, or savings of any kind.
... our church isn't true, but we have to keep up appearances so we don't get shunned by our friends and family, fired from our jobs, kicked out of our homes, ... Please don't tell on me. ~maklelan
_Some Schmo
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Re: Question for Atheists: Abortion

Post by _Some Schmo »

cksalmon wrote: Message: life can be justifiably discarded if his or her continued existence threatens to impinge upon my own personal happiness and well-being.

How on earth did we get to this point?

So I guess you never weed your garden? You never use pesticides? I wonder what you eat if it's not organic. Far be it from you to intrude on the weeds' or bugs' right to infest your crops, just because their continued existence threatens to impinge upon your own personal happiness and well-being.

People just love to act all high and mightily morally superior when it comes to their regard for life, any life, but when you really think about the implications of that belief, you must realize you only believe it to an extent. Basically, if it's your own species, it's special... oh what the heck, vertebrates are special too; otherwise, life's not all that valuable.

That's what I call hubris, not to mention convenient.

I hope you're saving your boogers. They contain a living part of you.
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_asbestosman
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Re: Question for Atheists: Abortion

Post by _asbestosman »

Some Schmo wrote:People just love to act all high and mightily morally superior when it comes to their regard for life, any life, but when you really think about the implications of that belief, you must realize you only believe it to an extent. Basically, if it's your own species, it's special... oh what the heck, vertebrates are special too; otherwise, life's not all that valuable.

That's what I call hubris, not to mention convenient.

Well, as long as we're talking about convenience in defining what is or isn't human/life/valuable, perhaps you'd like to share your views on homosexuals, blacks, Jews, or any other group of people who have a history of being discriminated against. Should they be special too, and is there a reason beyond convenience that they might be considered more special than many consider a fetus?

I hope you're saving your boogers. They contain a living part of you.

Funny/gross story: my brother claims that a couple other bros used to have booger walls. He suggested it was their version of following the prophet by keeping food storage.
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_gramps
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Re: Question for Atheists: Abortion

Post by _gramps »

LOL, schmo!

In answer to the OP, no.

But, it wouldn't bother me if someone decided not to keep their baby.

Dirty atheist that I am, I could see a situation where a dog would have more claim to life than some human life, depending on the situation.

I see nothing "sacred" in any western religious sense, in human life.

I seem to be moving, over time, ever closer toward empathy with Peter Singer's views.

Quite radical, I know. Now, Kevin, don't try to classify the other atheists on the board with my position necessarily, but it is where this atheist is at the present.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
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