When does the fear go away?

[_LDSDoubter]

The LDS Church is no more of a cult than any other sect of Christianity. The verse in D&C 84 does not make it so. How about this from Hebrews Chapter 10:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God

If you think D&C 84 make the LDS Church a cult than the verses from Hebrews above makes all of Christianity a cult.

I also think you would be hard pressed to prove that all the LDS Leaders knowingly believe the LDS Church to be false.

I'm shocked that anyone could make this comparison and think this is the same thing. Its sad to think anyone would put the D&C on par with the Book of Hebrews, when the D&C was just an invention of Joseph Smith, and Hebrews is part of the Bible. The D&C is specific to one church, the Hebrews passage pertains to rejecting Jesus Christ. Rejecting Jesus Christ is not on the same par as rejecting Joseph Smith.

Besides, I think everything from the Joseph Smith glasslooker trials & polyandry, to the Ira Fulton real estate deal, proves how the LDS leaders really feel about the church.

[_harmony]

Its sad to think anyone would put the D&C on par with the Book of Hebrews, when the D&C was just an invention of Joseph Smith, and Hebrews is part of the Bible.

Doubter, you realize that the Bible isn't any different than LDS scripture, don't you? That it was written by men, the same as LDS scripture was? That the value of scripture is important only to those who accept it as scripture?

In other words, Hebrews was someone's invention, too. Joseph didn't start anything new; it had all been done before, many many times.

[_Jason Bourne]

I'm shocked that anyone could make this comparison and think this is the same thing.

I am shocked that you are shocked.

Its sad to think anyone would put the D&C on par with the Book of Hebrews, when the D&C was just an invention of Joseph Smith, and Hebrews is part of the Bible

Rational thinking requires you to examine all scriptural claims with the same methods and critique you place on uniquely LDS scripture. Why should the Bible get a free pass. The passage says what it says. Reject Jesus-or the Christian religion of which there was only one when the author of Hebrews wrote what they wrote-and God will reject you and take vengeance on you. It is the same message that you complain about from D&C 84.

. The D&C is specific to one church, the Hebrews passage pertains to rejecting Jesus Christ

It pertains to one Christian religion at the time it was written.

Rejecting Jesus Christ is not on the same par as rejecting Joseph Smith.

Some alleged apostle of Jesus wrote Hebrews. If you reject the words of that apostle you reject Jesus. If Joseph Smith was an apostle like he claimed if you reject his message you reject Christ. There is no difference. If he was not an apostle than you are a ok. But you best examine all religious claims with the same level of scrutiny that you are LDS claims.

Besides, I think everything from the Joseph Smith glasslooker trials & polyandry, to the Ira Fulton real estate deal, proves how the LDS leaders really feel about the church.

All debatable points. But if you are convinced that is fine with me. It is your decision what you do with your religious life,not mine.

[_LDSDoubter]

Doubter, you realize that the Bible isn't any different than LDS scripture, don't you? That it was written by men, the same as LDS scripture was? That the value of scripture is important only to those who accept it as scripture?

In other words, Hebrews was someone's invention, too. Joseph didn't start anything new; it had all been done before, many many times.

Yes, I realize that, but we must consider the source. If Hebrews was composed by the Apostle Paul, we must consider that after Paul repented of all the evil deeds he did while he was Saul, he devoted his life in selfless service to Christ. He was beaten and tortured repeatedly and died as a martyr for the Gospel. He helped Peter, John, and others establish the New Testament church and traveled the known world spreading the new religion. He never lived in mansions, started cities/governments, etc. In fact at one point in the New Testament he says he was cold from not having enough clothing.

Contrast this with Joseph Smith, who married other men's wives, took advantage of young girls, did glasslooking scams, committed bank fraud, was an alcoholic, and was boastful. He said he did a better work than Jesus, when Paul always discouraged boasting and tried to take the attention off of himself and the other apostles as much as possible. Joseph Smith did jail time and was killed, but it was in spite of him preaching the "gospel." He brought most of his persecution on himself (real estate and bank fraud, Nauvoo expositor, etc.) and was killed by a vigilante mob that were aggrivated by his crimes, not martyrdom. Paul did jail time, was martyred, and died a violent death for no reason, just for preaching the gospel and being a Christian.

Harmony, I'm not sure what religion you are, but even if you are an athiest you have to admit that what we know about Paul from the historical record makes him seem like a much better authority to accept on Christianity than someone with the character of Joseph Smith. Also, the New Testament as a whole is non-sectarian. I can walk into a Catholic, Methodist, Presbyterian, any Christian church and they'll have a copy of the New Testament. The D&C is only accepted by LDS and restorationist groups that accept the authority of Joseph Smith. When it comes to respectability the New Testament seems to be on a much higher par than the D&C.

[_Jason Bourne]

LDS Doubter,

I understand your concerns and questions. I have been there and made peace in my heart and mind about many things in LDS history that caused me concerns. My decision is to remain LDS and worship God as a Latter-day Saint. That works for me. Still I am not nor do I think I even can be exactly the same type of LDS person that I was maybe five or six years ago.

As I have made my own journey I have felt it only fair to look at the next religious tradition that is closest to me with the same analysis that I did things LDS. The results were while I love the Bible and love Christian teaching and tradition, there are still many problems with the Bible and with Christianity. Just read one book about this called Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman and then let's chat. The Bible has problems. If you want to leave the LDS Church and pursue some other Christian faith great. But just be aware of what you might be getting into.

[_LDSDoubter]

LDS Doubter,

I understand your concerns and questions. I have been there and made peace in my heart and mind about many things in LDS history that caused me concerns. My decision is to remain LDS and worship God as a Latter-day Saint. That works for me. Still I am not nor do I think I even can be exactly the same type of LDS person that I was maybe five or six years ago.

As I have made my own journey I have felt it only fair to look at the next religious tradition that is closest to me with the same analysis that I did things LDS. The results were while I love the Bible and love Christian teaching and tradition, there are still many problems with the Bible and with Christianity. Just read one book about this called Misquoting Jesus by Bart Ehrman and then let's chat. The Bible has problems. If you want to leave the LDS Church and pursue some other Christian faith great. But just be aware of what you might be getting into.

I have a theology degree and I'm fully aware of the problems in the Bible. However, authors like Bart Erhman are liberals and do not represent the whole of non-LDS Christianity. There have been countless books and websites written that address these issues from a protestant perspective, such as Tektonics. Erhman is writing from an agnostic perspective.

The problems in the Bible for me confirm that it was written by fallible men. However, the ideas in the Bible are infallible. After learning the truth about Mormonism, there is no way I could go on supporting them with money knowing about the corruption and dishonesty. Even if the church's history were the only concern, the way they treat their members and the way they lie about things in the current church today makes it an environment I cannot stay in. I cannot support things that are out of God's will.

[_The Nehor]

Bye.

[_Jason Bourne]

I have a theology degree and I'm fully aware of the problems in the Bible. However, authors like Bart Erhman are liberals and do not represent the whole of non-LDS Christianity.

]

I did not say Ehrman represents all of Christianity. He however seems rather knowledgable. Do you dismiss him because he is a liberal?

There have been countless books and websites written that address these issues from a protestant perspective, such as Tektonics. Erhman is writing from an agnostic perspective.

Ehrman was an evangelical Christian studying theology when he began to lose his faith. Interestingly enough his story is not unlike yours and many others who become disillusioned with the LDS faith. Just change some of the topics and issues.

The problems in the Bible for me confirm that it was written by fallible men. However, the ideas in the Bible are infallible.

Which ideas are infallible? Adam and Eve? The Fall? The Flood? God choosing one group over all others? If they are written by fallible men then how can you prevent them from being tainted? And how can one even know they are accurately conveyed when we have none of the original autographs? If the Bible really is God's only workd to man God was really sloppy about how well it was preserved.

After learning the truth about Mormonism, there is no way I could go on supporting them with money knowing about the corruption and dishonesty.

If that is your choice and that is where God leads you I am ok with that.

Even if the church's history were the only concern, the way they treat their members

Huh!??? what are you talking about here?

and the way they lie about things in the current church today makes it an environment I cannot stay in.

What do they lie about today? Can you give me three things and provide solid evidence for these lies.

I cannot support things that are out of God's will.

You know God's will in all things?

[_LDSDoubter]

If Erhman is correct, then Mormonism is not true either, since Mormonism's truth claims hinge on fulfilling some key Bible prophecies.

[_Jason Bourne]

If Erhman is correct, then Mormonism is not true either, since Mormonism's truth claims hinge on fulfilling some key Bible prophecies.

Doubter,

Your response above is really rather silly. Have you read what I have said about me and where I am? Thus your comment is meaningless at least to me.
Also, I am amazed that you so readily reject Ehrman, a former believer now agnostic but you so readily it seems accept many proposals by LDS critics who may be hostile never LDS, bitter ex LDS or liberal LDS. Do you read Bushman, Peterson, FARMS, Gee or other things pro LDS when it comes to controversial historical issues? Who and what are you relying on? Are you willing to examine the rest of Christianity with the same scrutiny and critical methods you do things LDS and hold them to the same standards?

Look, I told you whatever you do I only wish you happiness. If you do not want to be LDS but want to be some other flavor of Christianity terrific. If you want to be agnostic, Muslim or whatever all I hope for you is peace and happiness. I simply think when one chooses to reject one religion then adopts another they should critically examine the other one as well. That is it. I do not think you are doing this.

And I still am waiting for you to supply three lies the current LDS leadership is perpetrating as well as evidence of such.