HELLO, I AM NEW HERE

[_zeezrom]

Hey Rich,

I'm glad you made it here! I hope you and I can have lots of adventures together. I'm known on this board as the "big fish" among the dark and loathsome critics. My arguments usually end up in the cesspool of raving criticisms. Droopy, Wade, Simon Belmont, and BCSpace are all afraid of me.

More later...

Zee.

[_Simon Belmont]

Thanks for the reply, Rich:

In the first place I know that “the Mormon Church” is a nickname. I gave the idea of whether I should use that name or not a lot of thought; it was only after seeing the name used @ LDS org by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints that I decided to go ahead and use it. You are the first person to let me know how wrong you feel it is for me to use that name.

I am a little more passionate than some about the usage of the name. While it is true that many outside of the LDS church and culture refer to it as "the Mormon church" consider this: we don't worship Mormon, we worship Jesus Christ and God.

I have no problem using the name Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

It is your website, Rich. I was just trying to point out something that may cause contention with LDS people.

So, if “there is no such thing as the Mormon Church” the LDS Church is referring to nothing with their own words “the religion commonly called the Mormon Church;” or, at the very least it is they who are propagating an untruth. Why do they not just say, “there is no such thing as the Mormon Church.”

I use LDS material to form my understanding of who they claim they are and what they believe and it is so misleading — so many inconstancies. Do you have enough clout to have the LDS org page changed to align with what you are saying? So that investigators like me won’t be confused?

You're obviously a nice guy, and I did not mean to seem hostile or "crafty" as MrStak put it, but you have to realize something: similar stories to yours I have heard seemingly hundreds of times. Here is how it goes:

• A hostile critic of my faith begins an interaction with me, either via e-mail, or on a message board such as this.
• This hostile critic is really a wolf in sheep's clothing, explaining that she or he has only the most noble motive: to discuss Mormonism in an unbiased way.
• As the discussion proceeds, the critic begins by telling me that she or he only learns about Mormonism through LDS sources, and is well read on these sources, and that she or he has some "questions."
• Then we get into obscure quotations that past leaders have said, quotations taken from The Journal of Discourses or The King Follett Discourse, and general misrepresentations of my faith. In other words, telling me what I believe!

Now, Rich, I am not saying you are this hostile critic. I was merely trying to explain my apprehension about your motives.

What’s funny is: that person said nothing about the improper use of the term Mormon Church.

As I said, I am perhaps more passionate about proper naming than some others in my faith. It's your website.

One thing I know for sure is that I am not going to find a way to please everyone.

That much is certain. You are allowed to do whatever you please with your own website.

[_Polygamy-Porter]

Hi Rich!

Maybe you should put Brodie on the shelf and get a copy of Rough Stone Rolling by Richard Bushman. Brodie can be a little outdated these days.

Oh YEAH, like it really helped get your inactive ass back in a pew!

Rich has more than one brain cell engaged in the truth of Mormonism, so sorry to break it to ya but Rich will not be joining the cult.

[_Simon Belmont]

Actually, I really enjoyed Rough Stone Rolling. I am proud to make a place for it on my shelf. I recommend it to anyone who is seriously interested in the foundations of Mormonism.

[_Polygamy-Porter]

Actually, I really enjoyed Rough Stone Rolling. I am proud to make a place for it on my shelf. I recommend it to anyone who is seriously interested in the foundations of Mormonism.

Yep, it lays it out there.

Basically you must believe in magic to believe in mormonjism.

[_rich kelsey]

Simon, I admit that labeling the Church the ‘Mormon Church’ might/would offend certain people who were passionate about their faith and you helped push me to remove almost every reference to the ‘Mormon Church’ from my written works. This is probably a good thing and I think the average man on the street will still understand what Church I am speaking of.

Polygamy-Porter, thanks for responding to my post. What’s interesting is that I use quotes from Bushman. He says the most amazing things, like he really knows the truth; it’s as if he is playing tongue in cheek. Here is just one quote which is a good example of this:

Historical Difficulties — one long attempt at fraud:
“This, then, is the historical difficulty of the plates. Accounts of hiding the plates, wrapping the plates with cloth, showing the plates and translating from the plates become nothing more than one long attempt at fraud and make everything else Joseph Smith did doubtful. ‘Like a beggar claiming to have a diamond that he allows nobody to see,’ … So in the plates we have joined the two characterizations of Joseph Smith, ‘the fraud and the prophet, with the plates as the hinge between the two.’" (Statements from Richard Bushman - Book of Mormon Archaeological Forum's Conference, Oct. 23, 2010)

And, thanks again to everyone for the welcome.

[_Simon Belmont]

So, let's talk about Mormonism.

On your site, you quote:

Please send those in need links to articles on this site; together we can steer people away from false hopes, shattered dreams, and wasted lives.

Rich Kelsey

Does Mormonism, in your opinion give people false hopes, lead them to shattered dreams, and waste their lives?

[_Yoda]

So, let's talk about Mormonism.

On your site, you quote:

Please send those in need links to articles on this site; together we can steer people away from false hopes, shattered dreams, and wasted lives.

Rich Kelsey

Does Mormonism, in your opinion give people false hopes, lead them to shattered dreams, and waste their lives?

Of course, Rich may have a different stance, and I'm not trying to answer for him. However, in my conversations with him, I don't think that he is necessarily saying that Mormonism, in and of itself, wastes people's lives, shatters dreams, or gives false hopes. It seems to me that Rich's issue is more about how the Church often minimizes, or fails to address its' negative history.

In other words, an LDS member like you, or like me, for that matter, who is aware of the negative history, and chooses to continue membership in the Church, is not wasting his/her life. That individual is making an informed choice.

However, a person who does not know "the full story" is at a disadvantage.

I'll let Rich correct me if I am wrong regarding his feelings on this.

[_Simon Belmont]

In other words, an LDS member like you, or like me, for that matter, who is aware of the negative history, and chooses to continue membership in the Church, is not wasting his/her life. That individual is making an informed choice.

However, a person who does not know "the full story" is at a disadvantage.

I'll let Rich correct me if I am wrong regarding his feelings on this.

Fair enough, but you know my position on those who don't take the time or effort to learn all they can about the church.

Whose fault is it?

[_Buffalo]

Does Mormonism, in your opinion give people false hopes, lead them to shattered dreams, and waste their lives?

False hopes? Check
Shattered dreams? Only if they find out about the former.
Waste their lives? Check