Philosophy 101: My Argument about Satan

[_zeezrom]

LDST,

This is very excellent news about your Sunday! I love it. :)

Regarding faith. Maybe I'm off base here, but I recall learning that God had us pass through a veil of forgetfulness so that we had the chance to use our free agency.

[_Patriarchal gripe]

If Satan wanted to thwart the POS he should have just sat idly by in the Garden of Eden, in Jackson County, MO, and refused to tempt Adam (God, according to BY) and Eve, and the entire POS would have failed to come to fruition (no pun intended). No eating of forbidden fruit, no knowledge would have been gained (before faith, in this case), and no children born to sexless Adam (God the Father) and Eve. Just two people sitting in a garden living off the dole forever.

ETA: Either Satan is an idiot, or he is in cahoots with God (who is actually Adam).

[_hatersinmyward]

free agency is a persons choice weather or not to accept gods help.

no such thing as 'bad apples' or poeple who were born to go to hell.

[_zeezrom]

ETA: Either Satan is an idiot, or he is in cahoots with God (who is actually Adam).

I agree. I believe Satan is not fulfilling his role as the archenemy of God. Something seems fishy.

[_The Nehor]

Nehor,

I can't quote I'm on the iPhone... But in the OP (premise #3), the Ludlow quote says only through faith will the choices we make come from within us.

Choices are completely owned by us and us alone when we use faith. That, I think, is what Ludlow is saying. This seems to be consistent with LDS teachings, doesn't it?

Sorry, was looking at wrong sentence.

In this case, I disagree with Ludlow. I see what he is trying to say and I agree with his intent but to say that your choices are only your own in this mortal sphere means God's choices are not wholly His own.

[_The Nehor]

Faith comes before knowledge, and LDS theology states you can only ever have faith with respect to the mysteries of God. See Alma 32.

Wrong.

Knowledge is never attainable, because it is believed that faith produces stronger allegiance. So you are correct, Zee.

So Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Peter, and Joseph were all not very devoted to the cause because they got knowledge directly from God and so their allegiance was weak? Ridiculous.

[_LDSToronto]

Faith comes before knowledge, and LDS theology states you can only ever have faith with respect to the mysteries of God. See Alma 32.

Wrong.

Mind showing how? Because one can read Alma 32 and come to this very conclusion.

Knowledge is never attainable, because it is believed that faith produces stronger allegiance. So you are correct, Zee.

So Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Peter, and Joseph were all not very devoted to the cause because they got knowledge directly from God and so their allegiance was weak? Ridiculous.

Did Joseph live a perfect life after the first vision? There seems to be sufficient historical accounts stating he was a bit of a scoundrel - hardly someone you'd say was changed because they saw God in the flesh.

According to poster Gregg, on Mormon.org, "[Faith] is the first step in obtaining knowledge".

According to the gospel principle manual:

"Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is the first principle of the gospel.... Faith is a "hope for things which are not seen, which are true" (Alma 32:21; see also Hebrews 11:1). The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that faith is a principle of power that motivates our day-to-day activities.

Would we study and learn if we did not believe we could obtain wisdom and knowledge? Would we work each day if we did not hope that by doing so we could accomplish something? Would a farmer plant if he did not expect to harvest? Each day we act upon things we hope for when we cannot see the end result. This is faith. (See Hebrews 11:3.)

Many scriptural stories tell how great things were accomplished through faith.

By faith Noah built an ark and saved his family from the flood (see Hebrews 11:7). Moses parted the waters of the Red Sea (see Hebrews 11:29). Elijah called down fire from heaven (see 1 Kings 18:17-40). Nephi called for a famine (see Helaman 11:3-5). He also asked the Lord to end the famine (see Helaman 11:9-17). Seas have been calmed, visions opened, and prayers answered, all through the power of faith."

Sounds more like faith is a first principle, and doesn't rely on knowledge whatsoever.

H.

[_Buffalo]

Is God fond of taking away knowledge, hiding the information from our five senses and then asking us to figure the puzzle out? How does that increase our knowledge?

It doesn't increase knowledge. It increases faith. Look at Alma 32.

Though I think you might be correct in that most people who live on earth will not make it back to live with God in the celestial kingdom. LDS theology is set up such that Satan is probably winning, if God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Immortality is a shoe-in for everyone; eternal life, it seems, will be for a select few.

However, I think Zee's hypothesis is interesting to consider.

H.

What use is faith in the celestial kingdom? There it's back to knowledge again.

[Guest]

I stand by my premise that Faith is indeed a vital ingredient in Mormon Free Agency!

Here are some more references linking agency and faith:

Yes, faith is a choice, and it must be sought after and developed. Thus, we are responsible for our own faith. We are also responsible for our lack of faith. The choice is yours.
OCTOBER 2010 ADDRESSES FAITH—THE CHOICE IS YOURS, RICHARD C. EDGLEY, First Counselor in the Presiding Bishopric

Thus, learning by faith involves the exercise of moral agency to act upon the assurance of things hoped for and invites the evidence of things not seen from the only true teacher, the Spirit of the Lord. SEPT. 2007 Seek Learning by Faith, BY ELDER DAVID A. BEDNAR, Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

...chalkboard discussion...YOUNG WOMEN MANUAL 3, "Lesson 24: Agency," Increasing in Spirituality

You and I were among those who used their agency to accept Heavenly Father’s plan to come to earth, to have a mortal life, to progress. “We shouted for joy … to have the opportunity of coming to the earth to receive bodies [for we knew] that we might become, through faithfulness, like unto our Father, God.”

How do you reclaim that agency? How do you begin again to exercise it in the right way? You choose to act in faith and obedience. May I suggest a few basic choices that you can begin to make now—this very day.

To all who desire to enjoy the supernal blessings of agency, I testify that agency is strengthened by our faith and obedience. Agency leads us to act: to seek that we may find, to ask that we may receive guidance from the Spirit, to knock on that door that leads to spiritual light and ultimately salvation.

APRIL 2006 ADDRESSES, To Act for Ourselves: The Gift and Blessings of Agency, ROBERT D. HALES, Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

There is a principle that is basic to the gospel of Jesus Christ, and yet it is not faith or repentance or the Atonement. But faith, repentance, the Atonement, and all the other principles, ordinances, and doctrines of the gospel are based on this principle—indeed they would be virtually inoperative and impossible of existence if it were not for this principle of moral free agency.
http://LDS.org/new-era/1976/11/moral-free-agency?lang=eng&query=faith+agency

As we obey each of our Father’s commandments, we grow in wisdom and strength of character. Our faith increases. We find it easier to make right choices. "Chapter 4: Freedom to Choose," Gospel Principles, (2009)

[_Some Schmo]

I think the real question is whether the Dark Side of the Force was acting through Darth Vader in order to restore balance to the galaxy.

These are the kinds of important life changing questions we should be asking ourselves.