Mormon Egyptologist Debunks the Book of Abraham

[_BrianH]

It should also be noted that BrianH's post above is an unattributed cut and paste job from the website of the late and notorious "Dr." Walter Martin, and contains not a single original thought our augment from between his own ears.

Uh Droopy ...the original posting at Walmart was MINE. I should not need to attribute my own material to myself, even though I DID already point to the original that you cited. Did you not notice my name on it at Walmart?

In any event, the point was not to pose my own thoughts here but Dr. Thompson's. I note with interest that you have yet to actually engage his material. Where you SHOULD have posted counter-evidence or some kind of valid refutation all you have done is regurgitate your predictable emotional reactions to his highly qualified and informed assessments (as a professional, degreed and peer-reviewed Egyptologist, that is).

Thompson is a qualified Egyptologist, but unlike the apostate Dr. Thompson, the Church also has and has fielded competent and distinguished scholars with similar credentials and, frankly, of greater intellectual depth (if Shirts' expose of Thompson's lackluster scholarship is any indication, and it most certainly appears to be) who have not found Thompson's conclusions convincing.

http://www.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/looking.htm
http://www.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/part2.htm
http://www.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/part3.htm

Note that all of the above are from ONE source: Kerry Shirts, who has no qualifications in Egyptology whatsoever. Also note that not ONE of the above citations contains anything that actually provides any confirmation whatsoever that Smith actually translated the Breathing Permit of Hor correctly. In fact Smith failed to even correctly IDENTIFY the document he supposedly translated. And since God Himself supposedly rendered this translation, why is it that no one can show that He translated it CORRECTLY?

Is God a moron?

-BH

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[_BrianH]

Droopy (whoever that is) may indeed. But if CG cannot bring his/her/it's-self to state and/or explain his/her/it's position on this topic, his/her/its opinion is actually less than irrelevant. For the purposes of this discussion, its non-existent,

I'm Loran Blood, as I post at the MDD board. I still use Droopy here because I love the character and his, uh, attributes.

There is now a large scholarly and non-academic but intellectually serious literature on the Book of Abraham from both sides of the fence. Cutting and pasting the dated and less than rigorous claims of a single, isolated apostate LDS intellectual, and dong so from the website of a notoriously anti-intellectual Protestant Fundamentalist demagogue isn't going to get you very far with those who understand the issues and those who have gone much farther and deeper than Thompson in their own research.

I understand the issue just fine. So do lots of people, including the rather large body of highly qualified Egyptologists who represent the universal consensus of scholars (obviously including LDS scholars) as to the actual purpose, nature and content of the original document. There is no body of work ANYWHERE (academic, intellectually serious or even amateur) that will show that your so-called "prophet" translated the Breathing Permit of Hor CORRECTLY. Thus either he was lying or the supposed God who inspired him is a fraud or an imbecile.

In fact, no one has even been able to show that Smith at least identified the document correctly.

-BH

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[_Droopy]

I understand the issue just fine.

I doubt this...highly.

So do lots of people, including the rather large body of highly qualified Egyptologists who represent the universal consensus of scholars (obviously including LDS scholars) as to the actual purpose, nature and content of the original document.

There is no "original document." There is no convincing evidence whatever that we have the original materials from which Joseph translated or derived the present Book of Abraham. We certainly do have associated materials that are relevant and connected to the Book of Abraham, but not the body of the text.

There is no body of work ANYWHERE (academic, intellectually serious or even amateur) that will show that your so-called "prophet" translated the Breathing Permit of Hor CORRECTLY. Thus either he was lying or the supposed God who inspired him is a fraud or an imbecile.

Joseph never claimed to have translated the Book of Abraham from the Sensen text, but from ancient papyri, papyri that both early descriptions of the original Chandler materials and eyewitness accounts of the materials in Joseph's possession during the production of the Book of Abraham indicate are no longer extant. Indeed, the obvious inference from the lack of a textual original to the present Book of Abraham in our extant materials would indicate...a lack of original materials, wouldn't it?

You're trapped with R. McGraham and other critics decades in the past with Nelson, Ashment, Larson etc. and their relentless attempts to prove what Joseph "thought" he was doing vs. what the evidence actually plausibly can support.

[_BrianH]

I understand the issue just fine.

I doubt this...highly.

Try me.

There is no "original document." There is no convincing evidence whatever that we have the original materials from which Joseph translated or derived the present Book of Abraham. We certainly do have associated materials that are relevant and connected to the Book of Abraham, but not the body of the text.

Obviously you are either unfamiliar with even the basics here or else you are trying to regurgitate the ole' "we don't have the original papyrus" nonsense. Of course there is conclusive evidence that your church has the original papyrus or at least a substantial portion of it! Here, try this little exercise: Open your Book of Abraham, Droopy. Do you see the "Facsimiles"? Are you going to try to deny that these came from the Sensen papyrus held and prized by your organization? Care to show that he AT LEAST translated the language and ideography on those facsimiles correctly?

BH>>There is no body of work ANYWHERE (academic, intellectually serious or even amateur) that will show that your so-called "prophet" translated the Breathing Permit of Hor CORRECTLY. Thus either he was lying or the supposed God who inspired him is a fraud or an imbecile.

D>Joseph never claimed to have translated the Book of Abraham from the Sensen text, but from ancient papyri, papyri that both early descriptions of the original Chandler materials and eyewitness accounts of the materials in Joseph's possession during the production of the Book of Abraham indicate are no longer extant. Indeed, the obvious inference from the lack of a textual original to the present Book of Abraham in our extant materials would indicate...a lack of original materials, wouldn't it?

Facsimiles, D ...Facsimiles. Where do you supposed these came from, and why does your organization prize the original papyri from which these facsimiles were copied if they are NOT related to the original documents used by your so-called "prophet"?

You're trapped with R. McGraham and other critics decades in the past with Nelson, Ashment, Larson etc. and their relentless attempts to prove what Joseph "thought" he was doing vs. what the evidence actually plausibly can support.

Show me that Smith translated the original document correctly, Droops. Then and ONLY then will you have any basis to even pretend that the decades of scholarly consensus is wrong.

-BH

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[_BrianH]

So ...CG, have you considered what it means that your organization's "scriptures" are a proven hoax?

-BH

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You may want to get a feel for other people's opinions before asking them questions, loaded or otherwise.

I already know CGs opinion. I am asking her if she is willing to try to support her opinion with something more than the programmed emotional reactions ingrained into every Mormon.

-BH

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[_Jersey Girl]

BrianH

Note that all of the above are from ONE source: Kerry Shirts, who has no qualifications in Egyptology whatsoever.

Note that each of those articles is at least 8 or more years old. Are you familiar with any of Shirt's current work on the Book of Abraham?

[_BrianH]

BrianH

Note that all of the above are from ONE source: Kerry Shirts, who has no qualifications in Egyptology whatsoever.

Note that each of those articles is at least 8 or more years old. Are you familiar with any of Shirt's current work on the Book of Abraham?

Unfortunately for him, yes. The man has never had and now continues to bear no qualifications that would elevate his opinions above the ranting of some guy out in the desert with a camcorder and a highly inflated opinion of himself. Shirts presents exactly NOTHING to confirm that his so-called "prophet" translated anything correctly. He offers nothing but the usual tangential deflections and lame rabbit trails.

Given the FACT that the original document (or what is left of it) has been conclusively and repeatedly identified as a "Breathing Permit" by the universal consensus of all qualified Egyptologists, archaeologists, historians and other antequarians, I see no reason to simply assume that his obvious a-priori conclusions have any standing whatsoever.

Why do you suppose the 1st century Egyptians bothered to bury their dead with copies of the "Book of Abraham" INSTEAD of the "Breathing Permit" required by their own pagan religion???

-BH

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[_Kevin Graham]

Thompson is a qualified Egyptologist, but unlike the apostate Dr. Thompson

Oh that would make things much easier for droopy, but as usual he doesn't know what he is talking about, as Thompson is no "apostate" and is an active LDS member in good standing.

the Church also has and has fielded competent and distinguished scholars with similar credentials

Funny how droopy admits these people work strictly for the Church, revealing their biased agenda that has nothing to do with truth or scholarship. But let's see who he had in mind. CFR.

greater intellectual depth (if Shirts' expose of Thompson's lackluster scholarship is any indication, and it most certainly appears to be) who have not found Thompson's conclusions convincing.

Kerry Shirts wears fruit on his head and argues that archaeology proves God has a penis. He is not a scholar in any sense of the word and he doesn't pretend to be. His website is an ancient artifact of failed apologetics. The fact that members have to restort to relying on whatever nonsense an armchair apologist pumps out, means they have no business talking about intellectual integrity.

The fact is no one has dealt with Thompson's refutations of Nibley, and Ritner's latest book confirms much of what Thomspn already established. According to Ritner, Nibley's knowledge of Egyptian was so bad, that he'd perform "word for word" translations, producing gibberish, just so he could say, "See, this makes no sense, Egyptian we may never understand." Of course word for word translations from any language often produce gibberish. Nibley had Mormons fooled into thinking he had a decent grasp of the Egyptian language. He didn't. But who was going to argue with him? There were no Mormon Egyptologists at the time.

When I was an apologist this caused concern for me so I emailed an LDS E-list that was frequented by numerous LDS scholars and their only help was to tell me that Thompson was working his way down the career ladder by becoming a HS teacher somewhere in Florida. That was the extent of their response when I presented a number of claims he made that contradicted Nibley. In reality Thompson is visiting scholar at Brown University and the Egyptology depts at Chicago and Brown Universities are all united in their disagreement with the one or two "Egyptologists" produced by the Church. They have no credibility anywhere now.

In reality, the apologists have not dealt with Thompson. He has more credibility than both of the Church's "Egyptologists" put together. Mulhstein and Gee both have become agents of disinformation and they are not shy about lying if they think they can get away with it or save a soul for the Mormon Church. Truth really doesn't matter to them. Muhlstein's latest and idiotic remark aboutr a papyrus saying "Abraham on his couch" is a perfect example.

Loran Blood is a moron of epic proportions, and he has yet to demonstrate any knowledge on these matters whatsoever. It is why he gets "insta-banned" on his home forum whenever he tries to stick his nose into the subject he clearly knows nothing about. This is the same idiot who tried telling me the critics were arguing that the Book of Abraham came from the Hypocephalus! It is the same idiot who told me I knew nothing, but then ran over to the other forum to solicit help from the apologists in order to respond to my questions; they couldn't help him either. Between defenses mounted by Loran and the "special needs" apologist named Wade Englund, things aren't looking good for LDS apologetics. They don't have the intellectual fortitude to create valid counter-arguments. All they know how to do is attack anyone who dares stray from the party line.

[_Droopy]

Oh that would make things much easier for droopy, but as usual he doesn't know what he is talking about, as Thompson is no "apostate" and is an active LDS member in good standing.

If Thompson has rejected the Book of Abraham as revealed scripture, he has rejected a major aspect of the Restoration and much of the doctrine associated with it. Hence, he is in personal apostasy.

Funny how droopy admits these people work strictly for the Church, revealing their biased agenda that has nothing to do with truth or scholarship. But let's see who he had in mind. CFR.

R. Graham, Metcalf, Ashment, Larson etc. have no bias and no agenda (as in "The Book of Abraham cannot be true because if it is, much of our own worldview must not be, and we just can't have that.") All is pure, driven snow. To take that seriously, one would at least have to take Graham seriously, and to do that, one would have to suspend one's own intellectual faculties to the point that it would no longer matter what one took seriously and what one did not.

Kerry Shirts wears fruit on his head and argues that archaeology proves God has a penis. He is not a scholar in any sense of the word and he doesn't pretend to be.

I'm sure Kerry likes to have a good time, now and then, but the crux of this ad hominem nonsense is that, neither are you, and little you've ever produced here or anywhere else is indicative of any consciousness on your part of what that really entails. You are an accomplished character assassin, demagogue, and pseudo-scholar (you are adept at regurgitating and carefully re-articulating, in your own words, the scholarly work of others, the overall effect of which is that you come out appearing "smart" because of the long, involved posts heavily padded with graphics that those unaware of the sources of your arguments and the degree to which you actually do not, or will not understand the counter-arguments of LDS apologists and have lifted most of that material wholesale from others, will then take as evidence of "scholarship.") who's core approach to criticism of the church is both non-scholarly and rarely even civil.

His website is an ancient artifact of failed apologetics.

Then refute his arguments instead of calling him names. No, that's not in the works, because what Kerry showed in those essays (8 years old? Has anything in Egyptology changed since then relative to his work there? No, and as he showed there that Thompson hadn't himself done his homework, the case rests).

The fact that members have to restort to relying on whatever nonsense an armchair apologist pumps out, means they have no business talking about intellectual integrity.

You're nothing but a primate in a cage throwing your own poop at those outside the cage who you know have something on you. Its hard to decide between tragedy and farce in observing your continual descent into raving, bitter obscurity.

The fact is no one has dealt with Thompson's refutations of Nibley, and Ritner's latest book confirms much of what Thomspn already established.

Uh huh...

I might as well snip all of the argument from authority verbiage below, as its nothing more than polemical bile anyway. But the following is even more instructive of the sad psychological and spiritual state of this tragic little flailing bigot.

Loran Blood is a moron of epic proportions, and he has yet to demonstrate any knowledge on these matters whatsoever.

Others don't think so, but of course, you have no respect for those others whatsoever either. Interestingly, those others have been telling Kevin that he doesn't know what he's talking about just as long has he's been yelling the same back at them. Those same "others," who have been doing primary study of the KEP for years, unlike R. Graham, who cuts and pastes reworked arguments from long years past by others who do not understand that they are barking up a nonexistent tree, have quite a good argument to make, from there perspective, about the relative merits of Graham's arguments.

It is why he gets "insta-banned" on his home forum whenever he tries to stick his nose into the subject he clearly knows nothing about. This is the same idiot who tried telling me the critics were arguing that the Book of Abraham came from the Hypocephalus!

This lie has been explained ad nauseum, over and over again, to this Scratch clone, but to no avail. In point of fact, the Sensen text was thought to be the source of the Book of Abraham, and Joseph's interpretations of the Egyptian symbols on the hypocephalus have come under criticism (as with the other facsimiles) as having been botched by Smith (even though deeper inspection reveals, and Kerry has done some very good work on this, that Joseph was spot on in a number of cases in areas he could have known nothing about, correctly interpreting a number of the iconography he had to work with). I misspoke, for one reason or another, at one time, perhaps confusing the hypocephalus with the Sensen, but I explained this long ago as a "brain cramp" on my part and moved on. Kevin can't move on because his entire project is in the branding of everyone who disagrees with him as stupid (including well respected BYU/NAMI scholars) and even Nibley himself, who by any measure makes Graham look like the guys tossing bones into the air at the beginning of 2001 A Space Odyessy in comparison.

It is the same idiot who told me I knew nothing, but then ran over to the other forum to solicit help from the apologists in order to respond to my questions;

Yeah, like R. Graham runs to Ashment, Larson, Metcalf et al seeking solace for his apostasy from what he knows is true becuse he has no original arguments or perspectives of his own to bring to the table and to cut through the tangled undergrowth of his own bad conscience.

The fact that he finds going to a board like MDD, where there are a number of highly educated people around, looking for greater education and knowledge on some subject, as indicative of some personal failing, is instructive. Why read books at all? Why go to lectures?

they couldn't help him either. Between defenses mounted by Loran and the "special needs" apologist named Wade Englund, things aren't looking good for LDS apologetics. They don't have the intellectual fortitude to create valid counter-arguments. All they know how to do is attack anyone who dares stray from the party line.

I've know Down's Syndrome people who are far better, far more likeable, and basically more human than you, my little invertebrate. And you know what, in the far vaster, panoramic view of things, it just may turn out in the end that they were smarter than you as well.

[_Droopy]

Unfortunately for him, yes. The man has never had and now continues to bear no qualifications

Except an adult lifetime of study, reading, research, and deep, hard thinking about these subjects. Whether or not he has a formal, academic degree appears to me to be superfluous (and logically, as to the merits of his arguments, it is).

And your qualifications to adjudge either Kerry's merits of the arguments of academic Egyptologists (who do not by any means agree on many things) are?