Is Jeffrey Holland a dodo?

[_moksha]

How do we know important parts of the interview showing a different tone aren't cut out?

Unshown answers are much like unwritten doctrines. They exist for our benefit if we were but worthy to see or hear them. Alas, we must use our imagination in hearing how women and gays are now allowed allowed to hold the Priesthood with both hands.

[_Fence Sitter]

How do we know that the important parts of the Book of Mormon were not left out?

[Guest]

I would say that his response and being caught in a lie in regards to Romney having made penalty covenants in the temple appears seamless and unedited... But what do I know.

Then again, I've read a couple of books, I have a degree or two from good schools. I am no dodo. But Holland is demonstrably a liar.

If I were as honest and demonstrated the kind of integrity that Holland and that church official media rep guy demonstrated, would I be considered honest with my fellow men in all of my dealings sufficiently to be worthy of a temple recommend? Following their example I could justify bold faced lying in answering a recommend interview, as I could hem and haw about timeframes and justify dissembling asnwers.

[_Sethbag]

I don't think he denied that Romney made penalty covenants. He denied that penalty covenants are part of the endowment, but admitted that they had previously been part of it, when he was specifically asked that. When it was pointed out that Romney had been endowed prior to the change, didn't Holland just launched into this whole "doesn't everyone make sacred covenants with God?" thing.

I think part of the problem was that the interviewer was unusually well-prepared for a guy given access to one of the Q12. I don't think Holland was expecting all of those questions, and he certainly did seem a little caught off guard. The problem was, the interviewer didn't ask anything blatantly wrong. Holland really didn't have anywhere to go.

[_Shulem]

I would say that his response and being caught in a lie in regards to Romney having made penalty covenants in the temple appears seamless and unedited... But what do I know.

Then again, I've read a couple of books, I have a degree or two from good schools. I am no dodo. But Holland is demonstrably a liar.

Mitt didn't make a penalty. They don't do that in the temple anymore. Mormonism is all about virture and telling the truth and not about tattoos and body piercings.

Would you like some milk in your glass?



Paul O

[_lulu]

Clearly, this interview showed the unrehearsed side of Jeffrey Holland.

I don't get it.

Holland has the best PR and media services in the world available to him. Even BKP was able to finess the "homosexuals, feminists and intelectuals" question in the Helen Whitney documentary. But Holland looks bad over and over again here.

Why didn't he rehearse?

[Guest]

I don't think he denied that Romney made penalty covenants. He denied that penalty covenants are part of the endowment, but admitted that they had previously been part of it, when he was specifically asked that. When it was pointed out that Romney had been endowed prior to the change, didn't Holland just launched into this whole "doesn't everyone make sacred covenants with God?" thing.

I think part of the problem was that the interviewer was unusually well-prepared for a guy given access to one of the Q12. I don't think Holland was expecting all of those questions, and he certainly did seem a little caught off guard. The problem was, the interviewer didn't ask anything blatantly wrong. Holland really didn't have anywhere to go.

The question asked was had Romney made those covenants: "As a Mormon, in the temple, I've been told He would have... blah blah blah.. lest he slit his throat"? Holland answers: "That is not true".... no , till he is shown to be lying at which point he changes his story. The other guy does the same thing. Disavows any knowledge of the committee until it is apparent that he is caught in a lie, so he comes clean.

They are both shown to be liars.

You also believe that he does not know that Joseph was convicted of fraud about the glass looking stuff?

Holland also lies about shunning:

"There comes a time when it is wise to shun and avoid those who rebel against the light and whose hearts are set on promulgating false and damning doctrines."
~The Life and Teachings of Jesus and His Apostles Course Manual

"Avoid those who would tear down your faith"
~Doctrine and Covenants and Church History Gospel Doctrine Teacher’s Manual

He then lies about the numbers.... 14 million..... yeah right..... of which about 30% still self identify as Mormon.

[_Sethbag]

I can put my TBM hat on for a minute and imagine that a TBM watching that interview will think it's an anti-Mormon hit piece out to smear the church. The former TBM apostate in me has been out long enough now to be able to watch this and realize this is just how a lot of people in the world who know the kinds of things Sweeney learned about the church see the Mormons. And the stuff that Sweeney was talking about istrue.

If he doesn't understand the "nuance" that allows Mormons to know some or all of that stuff and still believe, it's not his fault. A perfect example of this is the Book of Abraham. It looks, for all the world, like Joseph Smith made up the Book of Abraham and claimed it was a translation from the Egyptian funeral documents. You can't expect a guy like Sweeney to look at the evidence and then come up with crap like the mnemonic device theory - only a true believing apologist would come up with something like that. I don't think Sweeney is out to get the church per se - it really seems to me that Sweeney doesn't really give a crap about the church either way, and was just calling it as he sees it.

[_Sethbag]

Clearly, this interview showed the unrehearsed side of Jeffrey Holland.

I don't get it.

Holland has the best PR and media services in the world available to him. Even BKP was able to finess the "homosexuals, feminists and intelectuals" question in the Helen Whitney documentary. But Holland looks bad over and over again here.

Why didn't he rehearse?

The Q12 don't do the Book of Abraham. That's not what they do. What they do is ignore the Book of Abraham question. That's why he didn't rehearse. They're used to puff piece questions, and they got hit with the friggin Book of Abraham papyrus.

Likewise, Holland may have rehearsed for "magic underwear" for all we know, and probably had some nice little answer all ready to give, but then Sweeney asked him about the penalty oath and pantomiming one's own death. That's not something that just anyone knows - I don't think Holland was expecting Sweeney to come armed with stuff from hardcore apostates or antis.

And the Strengthening the Members Committee? Who asks that? Seriously, when has this ever been asked in an interview like this?

The problem is the Q12 ignore the problems, they don't deal with them, they don't answer the questions, they don't talk about them, they simply ignore them and change the subject. Holland was caught in between a rock and a hard place when he agreed to an interview with a guy who came prepared to ask questions Holland is used to being able to simply ignore. Well, he couldn't ignore them with the cameras rolling, and he got caught with his pants down.

Maybe it's just an English/American thing, and American journalists are too polite to ask questions like this, and the Englishman just didn't grok that. And the church didn't realize that an English journalist wouldn't have the same approach to questioning someone about their religion in public that an American probably would have had.

[_lulu]

Why didn't he rehearse?

Maybe it's just an English/American thing, and American journalists are too polite to ask questions like this, and the Englishman just didn't grok that. And the church didn't realize that an English journalist wouldn't have the same approach to questioning someone about their religion in public that an American probably would have had.

I guess that could be it. But what do they pay Edelman Worldwide for? The British have always looked down on Mormonism. Sweeny is known for his snark. The Beeb is heard around the world. Mormons should have been prepared for the worst.

I'd ask Edelman's for a rebate.