SteelHead wrote:Tobin, No offense... But as you seem to.disagree with LDS inc on just about every point of doctrine (outside of the Book of Mormon and its teachings)... Have you considered declaring the church fallen apostates and starting your own? By your own admission you seem to meet the Joseph Smith criteria for starting a church.
I don't view the church of God that way. The church of God is those who truly follow God and that certainly isn't limited to just Mormons. There is no need to start that Church since it has always been on the earth. There have always been those that were willing to fight for the truth and believe it (that truth being that there is a God). And there are also always those on the other side that teach against that and against God and to do what men say instead. That is the dynamic that we face and the choice we all face - to either do what with right or do what is easy.
Tobin, do you view it as everyone that is not rah-rah'ing for a god (as defined in Christianity) as being against god? Sort of a you-are-either-for-us-or-against-us attitude? Or do you simply see it that some do not choose to believe in that for which there is no evidence, and are not 'against' god, but merely do not acknowledge that there is a god to be for or against?
SteelHead wrote:Tobin, No offense... But as you seem to.disagree with LDS inc on just about every point of doctrine (outside of the Book of Mormon and its teachings)... Have you considered declaring the church fallen apostates and starting your own? By your own admission you seem to meet the Joseph Smith criteria for starting a church.
Tobin wrote:I don't view the church of God that way. The church of God is those who truly follow God and that certainly isn't limited to just Mormons. There is no need to start that Church since it has always been on the earth. There have always been those that were willing to fight for the truth and believe it (that truth being that there is a God). And there are also always those on the other side that teach against that and against God and to do what men say instead. That is the dynamic that we face and the choice we all face - to either do what with right or do what is easy.
Themis wrote:Yet how do you know when you think you have only had one expereince with God and you don't believe in the other spiritual expereinces as a way to find out God's will. Reality is that you are just going with what one mans says, which is you.
That's the difference between spirituality and religion. Spirituality is an enlightening feeling that makes one more social and civil towards others, while religion is use by some men of a 'fear of god', to gain leverage over other men. Spirituality and religion are actually quite at odds and have diametrically opposed goals.
sock puppet wrote:Tobin, do you view it as everyone that is not rah-rah'ing for a god (as defined in Christianity) as being against god? Sort of a you-are-either-for-us-or-against-us attitude? Or do you simply see it that some do not choose to believe in that for which there is no evidence, and are not 'against' god, but merely do not acknowledge that there is a god to be for or against?
No, I really don't have a problem with people that have doubts or a lack of evidence and feel there is no reason to believe in God. I do have a problem with people who actively denigrate those that do believe in God and belittle their beliefs because they have not experienced something similar. If you don't agree with me and have no evidence, that is simply an honest disagreement. If you feel a need to continually belittle me because I've had a different experience and encourage others to seek that kind of experience, then I feel you have clearly set yourself in the other camp and there is little for us to discuss.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
sock puppet wrote:Tobin, do you view it as everyone that is not rah-rah'ing for a god (as defined in Christianity) as being against god? Sort of a you-are-either-for-us-or-against-us attitude? Or do you simply see it that some do not choose to believe in that for which there is no evidence, and are not 'against' god, but merely do not acknowledge that there is a god to be for or against?
Tobin wrote:No, I really don't have a problem with people that have doubts or a lack of evidence and feel there is no reason to believe in God. I do have a problem with people who actively denigrate those that do believe in God and belittle their beliefs because they have not experienced something similar. If you don't agree with me and have no evidence, that is simply an honest disagreement. If you feel a need to continually belittle me because I've had a different experience and encourage others to seek that kind of experience, then I feel you have clearly set yourself in the other camp and there is little for us to discuss.
Thanks, Tobin, for your reply. A follow-up, if I might?
Do you allow for the possibility that some ex-believers have had the same type of experience upon which belief is based, but have re-evaluated that experience and the interpretation previously given to it, and thus dismiss now what they once held to as the basis for their prior belief? Or for you, is it that disbelievers obviously never have had the type and intensity of experience on which belief is based, for if they had they would be (or yet be) believers?
sock puppet wrote:Do you allow for the possibility that some ex-believers have had the same type of experience upon which belief is based, but have re-evaluated that experience and the interpretation previously given to it, and thus dismiss now what they once held to as the basis for their prior belief? Or for you, is it that disbelievers obviously never have had the type and intensity of experience on which belief is based, for if they had they would be (or yet be) believers?
No, I do not fault people for having doubts. It's part of our nature to doubt and deny.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
